An Irish National Stadium!

Gregf – they demolished hill16 a couple of months back……

I agree Greg,

There is something special about that pint in Drumcoundra before the game.

There is equally something special about the walk from Toners in Baggot St in the other codes.

There was a dissertation done in 2002 in Bolton St Lib by a guy called David Brock on the Re-Dev of Landsdowne.

What I Never under stood was the location at Abbotstown.

There is a great GAA match on in Parnell Park on Sunday, A team called the ‘Underdogs’ or all the headbangers who were to undisciplined to play for their own Counties vs Meath (I think Meath) Anyway 3pm next Sunday with Bertie throwing the Ball in

and are replacing it with!!!!! drum role!!!!!!
and new hill..just bigger. nothing like an irish solution to an irish problem. i think it’s absolutely crazy not to finish it off. it’s one of the finest stadia in the world and then they just stop! where is the sense in that.

oh! and i agree fully. we need another stadium. opening up croker is the best solution at present. i actually wonder if the gaa are going to pay back the taxpayer for all the money it got from us? and damn shame on the gov. what is it ??6 years promising us a stadium and nothing…i say , back to the 80,000 and bugger the money…just build it. they wasted enough on other projects…just get one right boys…

and no it’s against the jacks

Cheers Fin,

I think there are issues beyond the look of the Stadium for the GAA around Croker.

They have spent a lot of time and money dealing and clarifying matters with the local residents. All the goodwill they have built up would I imagine evaporate if the Stadium was finished. The point made on Q&A by Jarleth from Armagh was facinating when he asked if the Govt emptied their coffers could they pay for the 32 County infrastructure and get so many people to work for nothing to keep their game going.

Landsdowne should be built and it is clear that the land exists if the Landsdowne backpitches are used. It sits beside an existing DART Station, Hotels and some of the flashier bars.
You cannot invent that type of infrastructure at a green field location. It takes decades, well at least long enough for the Dubs to win Sam again

point taken.
and regards the locals around croker…too much emphasis is placed on this. they benefit greatly from big games for a few days a year when they are inconvienced with lots of people around there houses. and there is very rarely trouble. but current thinking leans towards this troublesome inclusion of a minority in infrastructural projects that will benefit the larger population.

oh! i think we need a dictator…it’ll certainly stop all this nonsense..

croker is a far more interesting stadium for it not being ‘comlpete’. hill 16 gives the stadium some charecter and you can see back ot of the stadium and realise where you are. it also makes the projecting canopeys at the ends look insanely long, great. and when your passing on the train you can catch glimpses into the stadium in stead of passing thru some tunnel. if it was all encircled in the same manner it would look like any other stadium in the world. as it is now its dublin’s stadium. i realise they cant just leave the hill like it was but i hope they keep is scale and these elements.
does anyone have any images of what they are proposing?

Simple solution, bring in the Portuguse to plan and build one stadium as they have just finished 6 on time and on budget and the Spanish to plan and build the infrastructure to same !! In the meantime Anfield sounds fine to me as Liverpool has always been a great soccer city and a surburb of Dublin.

i can not support an irish team playing a home game outside the country. it is just crazy.

Is the fact that Ireland has no domestic soccer infrastructure not the biggest problem at all.

When Stade De France was finished they had two tenants lined up in PSG and Stade Francais, Here Leinster represent the biggest Dublin crowd puller outside the BOI Football championship. There move of games to Landsdowne has failed in terms of both extra punters and more critically atmosphere.

Go to http://www.srfcultras.ie to see the travails of developing a domestic base in this country.

The stadium is going to lose money due to a lack of domestic commercial viability. The question is, how much does it lose and when and where do these loses commence.

true. i am sure there is a study done on that somewhere

Just Because it would directly lose money does not mean that it shouldn’t be built. In reality how many heritage sites don’t lose a tidy sum annually, so it follows that The Rock of Cashel will not be closed because it loses cash directly.
But I think two things need to be nailed before a decsion is made. Firstly the IRFU will have to part with Donnybrook and give the all cash to the project,

the FAI and IRFU should both use different names for the stadium to maximise the naming revenue directly again into the capital cost.

Secondly a comprehensive and balanced analysis of the real (not Bulls…) spin off effects would need to be undertaken. Using a genuine comparible such as Finland

If it passes those we have a stadium Me thinks

for which stadium??? landsdowne or new build

I don’t see abbotstown as a runner, the IRFU already own the land, the sale of the abbotstown lands could further finance the project.

do they? i never knew that. i thought it was gov land. were the gov going to buy it off irfu then? and yea. that seems to be a dead duck now alright.

No sorry,
That was a little unclear, the government own abbotstown labs. They have relocated them at a cost of €100m+ it is Landsdowne that the IRFU own.

I really cant believe no one has mentioned this or even thought of it! Fifa does not allow standing or temporary seating at soccer internationals, the FAI’s allowance for temporary seating has just expired, so Croke Park if it is opened up to football, will only be three quarters of a stadium with no fans on Hill 16. Croke Park will be opened up sooner or later, its a fact. Anyway its another great example of the short term thinking in this country, i mean what kind of retards are in charge of infrastructure in this country? No one either on T.V or in the press has mentioned the point i just made, i think it is a very obvious problem. Work should be stopped immediately on Hill 16, and the stadium should be finnished properly, i.e a proper stand should be built.

well said however the reason i think it was never mentioned is that the rest of the stadium is large enough that a few thousand seats might not make too much difference and fifa hasn’t renewed the temp seating in lansdowne but it doesn’t mean they won’t give it for croker..either way it isn’t that big an issue in relation to opening it up. and by no means is it a certainty that they will open it up.

Fin, a few thousand seats! Id say it would be somewhere in the region of 10,000, plus i personally feel the stadium looks unfinished with Hill 16. Ive also heard enough about Rule 42 and its reasons. Do they realise it wasnt only Croke Park where innocent Irish were killed, what about the streets and buildings such as the GPO and the Dail where Irish were killed by the british, should we ban British people from here aswell?

One thing to remember when talking about Croke Park is that the GAA are a private membership organisation. It is entirely their own business what they decide. What changes will come will be on their terms.

Except when they decide to accept money from Taxpayers (i.e. you, me and everyone else).

stira,
i agree totally with u on every point, well almost every one… it looks strange without it finished and they were stupid enough to list the hill aswell so even if they wanted to they can’t finish it. it would be much better to have it finished but i don’t belong to gaa and never will so i can’t explain that. it still is a 70,000 seater stadium even without it anyway and yes it wasn’t the only place innocent irish were killed. but the 2 u mentiioned r not great examples of where innocent irish were killed. but besides that it is a private company and it did accept tax-payers money so they are well within their rights to refuse but we as taxpayers are within our rights to demand it be opened. the government should have written into the contract that it be opened up or at least leased which is what some genius in the gaa came up with to let everybody off the hook.

The difference between the GPO and Croke park is that the those killed in the GPO knew the risks they were taking. The great hibernian sacrifice.

Those killed in Croke park went to a game on a Sunday with their kids.

Regarding the Government money, should the government not have a negotiated something prior to the grant. Is it not rude to give money with no strings and then ask for a return?

I remember hearing somewhere that the reason Hill 16 got its name is because it was built out of the rubble from buildings damaged during 1916! Does anyone know if this is true or if it is an urban legend?

Croke Park will never be opened up to other sports, and neither should it. As for the issue of tax-payers money being used – a drop in the ocean when you look at over 100 years of development of facilities, fitness, community and pride throughout the entire nation, mostly through sheer hard work and fundraising by the members of the organisation. Why should the GAA and it’s members stand for the pitch at Croke Park being torn to shreds by Rugby games during the winter months? Why should the GAA allow rival games have the benefit of it’s stadium that it has paid for fairly and squarely when it’s fighting the promotional battle against soccer and rugby constantly? It’s total nonsense for anyone to demand this off the GAA.

Croke park is being built to the original plans. It was never intended for the Hill 16 end to become a covered stand simply because there isn’t enough space for it on the site. The Railway line from Connolly to Heuston cuts the corner off which is why the hill was higher on the Cusack side than at the Hogan Side. The new Hill will be steeper, higher capacity, and will include a permanent “Big Screen” at the site of the Nally stand, to cover the Blank wall of the Railway embankment. Personally I’m more than happy thet the Hill will remain, it being by far the most atmospheric part of the stadium. Hopefully I’ll get to watch Tyrone win the Sam McGuire from a similar vantage point in future as I did this year!!

Hi Fin, I know the GPO and Dail werent good examples, i didnt want to start a history lesson but you know the point im trying to make. Your rgiht though, those who were in the GPO and Dail when they were being bombed and shot at were obviously not civilians. Going back to the stadium, i dont think it would be ideal as the pitch is 150m long i think, im not to sure about the width of the pitch, but my point basicly is that there could be quite a distance between the pitch and the fans. Youd also wonder if it were opened up would ticket prices increase or decrease, at the moment they are crazy considering were paying to watch our national teams play in a glorified barn. Id say about a fifty thousand seatre stadium would be a good capacity, for any new one that may be built, also with the improving economy and finances hopefully this project will atlast take off, no one can deny that the situation is such a joke its not even funny.

youre right stira, the pitch is a lot bigger than either, 160m x 100m. Rugby and soccer only need about 100m x 70m so there would probably be a bit too much distance between the edge of the stands and the pitch itself to create a truly great atmosphere…
Being a big fan of Rugby as well as GAA I’m interested to see what becomes of Lansdowne Rd. I think it’s be a great shame if Rugby was ever to move from that venue. Of course it needs a huge amount of money spent on it but the IRFU is bound to have enough money in their coffers and property they could sell off to at least get the ball rolling. The GAA raised well over a third of the finances for Croke park simply by selling corporate boxes and 10 year seats. Coupled with a bit of government subsidy (fairs fair after all..) I’d say they could aim for a decent 50,000 seater stadium on the site which would be more than adequate to accommodate Rugby or Soccer internationals…

People engaged in this debate always forget that the mission of the GAA is to promote the Irish sports; something they do very well, few countries of our size persue their indiginous sports at the level that the GAA sports are played here and Ireland is a more interesting, varied and fun place because they are.

The GAA keep Croke Park closed because it is in there interests to do so, they have built up the honour of playing there as a potent myth and a motivator in an amatuer game. This would be diminished if Croke Park became less exclusive, they will only do so if it is worth there while financially.

The GAA was given money by the government with no strings attached, it isn’t their job to second guess the moral obligations this money creates, their job is to spend it in the way that they feel best serves there mission: promoting Irish sports.

Terraces create atmosphere and soccer clubs would have liked to have kept them, they were forced to change because the behaviour of their fans made them unsafe. There is no reason why that should affect the GAAs decision about rebuilding Hill 16.

I understand that some people are anxious that Croke Park be opened for soccer so Man U can play there in round whatever of the European Champions whatever, and even if I wanted that too, I don’t see what it has to do with the GAA unless they wanted to increase there revenue generating powers. It like critizing Bord na gCon for not opening Shelbourne park up for cycle races.

Maybe notjim but totally correct

Ouch

The issue of the state giving €68 million or so to the GAA is irrelevant – it was no strings attached as notjim says.
That’s like saying the state paid for the restoration of Castletown, therefore the public have a right to hire it out for weddings etc because the taypayer owns it.

Did you hear on Prime Time last night – a whopping €12 million has been spent on reports & consultants etc on the issue of a national stadium! It really is pathetic the lack of leadership and clarity on this issue – what a shameful waste of resources.

Hill 16 was indeed built from the rubble of 1916, especially from the collapsed buildings on the east side of O’ Connell Street which included Clerys/Imperial Hotel.

(Sorry, but no one was killed in the Dail in 1916 – largly due to the fact that it didn’t exist)

I meant the Four Courts, even when it has been agreed to build the stadium, it is going to have to go through the planning process. If Lansdowne is to be replaced i dont think planning permission should be sought, i know its highly unlikely but i hope they can just build it immediately. Look at the facts 1. we need a stadium 2. lansdowne is simply being replaced, why give the begrudgers and objectors a chance to object to a replacement structure? 3. Scrapping the planning process would save a year or two judging by the speed of the decisions here.

definately, however i don’t see that happening. and after a year in planning it probably go to an bord cos an taisce don’t want to see lansdowne knocked cos it’s a listed building or some ohter rubbish. the needs of the majority must overcome the objections of a very small minority.
the gov have been throwing this around for years and expense that is hard to justify, just because they don’t agree where it should be. i say enough sh*te and build it as with this and various other rpomises that don’t seem to be happening either they got back into government as it certainly wasn’t their record of financial competency.

Just think the money that could have been spent 6 years ago on a stadium has since gone into to the health service and other “more noteworthy causes” and have we noticed the difference Mary? Eh … no! The health service is still a mess.

Spend the bloody money and invest in the future. Economic arguments seem to govern everything now a days. From the closing of local hospitals to the building of stadiums we have forgotten the non-economic effects.

You can’t put a price on some of the social benefits of building a stadia. Even if all it does is encourage more kids to play sport its worth it.

If more kids play sport it will mean they are less likely to burden the health service later in life!! There’s an economic benefit for you. 😉

Don’t the IRFU own a land bank out at Newlands Cross?

Pedantic point I know but – the Four Courts was bombed in 1922 so it’s not rubble from there either.

Just build the thing at Lansdowne all seater if needs be for the soccer boys. Hill 16 should not be amended by seating the terrace. Terraces are wonderful places with the best character in the stadia – just unfortunate that they have had their image tarnuished by soccer hooliganism.

why will it look similar to the mcalpine stadium?is this a buy one get one free offer?
plus in my opinion that is one of the worst looking new stadiums ive seen. 4 stupid arches, is this all they can think of to give it a sense of individuality? giant shapes in your face.

why will it look similar to the mcalpine stadium?is this a buy one get one free offer?
plus in my opinion that is one of the worst looking new stadiums ive seen. 4 stupid arches, is this all they can think of to give it a sense of individuality? giant shapes in your face.

Originally posted by what?
why will it look similar to the mcalpine stadium?is this a buy one get one free offer?

as it looks like it was made of Lego, I’d imagine it would be very easy to replicate. Maybe Harney can fund it vis-a-vis funding from the MIT Meejalab project

Or maybe someone in the media lab could do a better Virtual Reality giant hollagram Version.

It couldn’t be that yellow pack

If this is the best they can do, they may forget Dublin. Demolish Thomond Park and build a replica of croker Shannonside.

Munster rugby is the only team with any real support outside the GAA in Ireland.

Last year when both Euro-Semis were on in the same weekend one of my neighbours who is a PR guru brought his clients to Tolouse, even though he is a Marys club member.

They could realistically fill that place five or six times a year alone, then the three international rugby matches and 3-4 soccer

it makes better commercial sense.

Limerick has an Airport and locals fit to sort out any soccor hooligans on the planet

Finally a logical bit of decentralisation

I really hope it does mot look like that stadium, id prefer a box stadium if you know what i mean. Like St.James’s Park or Old Trafford, or did anyone see the stadium in which Chelsea were playing the other night in Germany, Schalkes Ground, now that was a stadium! Approximately 50,000 seater aswell. I think this capacity is perfect, the stadium should also be compact and fans close to the action. This will benefit the players, fans and will create a more intimidating atmosphere for the away team. I also doubt the McAlpine stadium is anywhere near 50,000 judging by the photo.

Though according to today’s Times the stadium at Lansdowne will be along the lines of the Hong Kong Rugby Stadium (Which looks quite good by the Pics in the sports section – sorry cannot post pics) and is 500,00 seater. It’ll be a u shaped job by the looks of it with a small stand at one end and a fuller one at the other whilst maintaining the same North-South alignment, and wont rise higher than anything currently on site at present (so there goes that objection)

i like that but will it be the same or along those lines irish style?

the new City Of Manchester stadium is fantastic. Maybe somethin along these lines. I know Lansdowne is a great location but I feel with the new aquatic centre in Abbotstown that a new stadium and maybe a 15,000 capacity indoor arena could turn the place into a great place to nurture Irish sport

Could you imagine what the IRFU could sell Lansdowne for? I think the site is 9 acres. I say sell the site and build a stadium in Abbotstown, where you will actually be able to park, is convenient for those coming from outside of Dublin and also Blanchardstown has a rail link dosnt it, i also have read that a metro is to be built to Abbotstown. The FAI has in mind to relocate its headquarters etc to Abbotstown. It also wants a permanent stadium for underage and womens matches, that it says it would like to build there. Plus academys etc. Id say it would be harder to object to the Abbotstown aswell.

here here.

I think the fact that you would be able to park in abbotstown is prob the best reason not to build there! Harsh I know – but let’s face facts we’re choking in congestion already – building where there’s already a DART and is walkable from town makes sense.

abbotstown is out of the city centre is it not?

Abbotstown is basicly Blanchardstown

Abbotstown is not Blanchardstown in any regard except that it shares the same postcode. It is a field.. Blanchardstown is a thriving village.

I like the fact that Lansdowne is near town but the site is very restrictive, i also feel that the Dart hinders access to the stadium, any time one go’s by a few thousand fans are stuck behind the gates waiting for it to open. The biggest joke though is after the match when everyone wants to leave and a Dart is passing, have you ever experienced the congestion in the stadium when that happens? People cant move for about five minutes. No id definetly say Abbotstown, the M50 is to be upgraded so are the interchanges, it has a railline and is to be served by a metro, what more do you want? One could also build a stadium faster and cheaper on a greenfield site. The idea of a sporting campus there is a good one, the National Aquatic Centre is already there and it is fantastic from what ive heard and read. Think of the contribution the IRFU could make if they sold Lansdowne for apartments. Or would it be possible for them to build apartments on the site and then sell them themselves?

Psrt of any redevelopment of Lansdowne could incorporate a pedestrian underpass of the rail-line. As for the M50 it will barely be able to cope with traffic plus an extra lane minus an extra stadium.

A Stadium is an objective

a city that works a prerequisite.

Any stadium must dovetail into the city. not the otherway around.

Hang on the capacity is 50,000 not 500,000. Its not as if everyone will drive is it and if even assuming a majority did, how many go to matches on their own? Whenever im walking to Lansdowne for a match the cars are normally full and you know they are going to the match becuase of the jerseys, hats, scarfs etc their wearing. The car park could also be used as a park and ride for the metro. Contiue the metro on and run it under the blanchardstown shopping centre and put a stop underneath it.

http://www.dto.ie/fig7.pdf

Heres a link to the proposed metro network, note Blanchardstown and all its surrounding rail lines.

Also how many matches do you know that kick off during rush hour? Soccer matches always kick off at 7.30 during weekdays and 3.00 on Saturday. The traffic using the roads would be far less than would be using it at peak hours.

Stira for someone that lives in Dublin, you must leave work early everyday.

On my 20 minute walk home everynight at about 7pm the traffic is still gridlocked. It would take me an hour to drive the same route

It is only during the summer that this really improves.

But by the time the stadium is built, we will have the port tunnel, luas, M 50 completed with more lanes and better interchanges, Dart upgrade, extra bus lanes, higher capacity on all trains serving Dublin, have you not seen cie’s ads on how much the capacity is increasing? The aiport to city centre metroline will probably be complete at around the same times as the stadium, the Liffey is getting watertaxis, i mean congestion here should have declined substantially by the time the stadium opens. Its not always good to think so short sighted.

That is depressing that means we won’t have a stadium until about 2025

Given the way infrastructural costs are spiraling off the scale

I pisses me off here with the crappy infrastructure aswell,but you cant always complain. I mean they are doing a hell of alot to adress the situation and things wont change overnight. I read on the IRFU’s website that the construction of the stadium will take two years, now anyone have any idea how long it would take to get planning permission etc? Id assumme though that itll be another few months atleast before permision is given for it to be built.

A lot less time if they use the GAA’s PR firm and sit down with the locals and engage in real consultation. In fact they should have done that before going to the press

The only advantage Lansdowne has is that its close to town, and im not sure if that is really an advantage to be honest with you. Of course it has a Dart, but Im assuming Abbotstown will get a metro which will cancel the Dart out as an advantage. Also where do you think youll get better support from the suits in D4 or people from Tallaght, Blanchardstwon etc?

Stira it is virtually impossible to get from Tallaght to Blanch without sitting in a traffic jam for Hours

Your missing my point, when you go to the the matches in Lansdowne, who are the more vocal fans those in the stands or on the terrace. The well to do people in the stands dont create any atmosphere, the people in the terraces who are dressed up, face painted, with drums and horns etc. create a far better atmophere, that cant be denied. You should go to a match to support your team not watch a football match, some big manager or player said that and i agree.

Stira,

For your next holiday you should go to
Buenes Airies and see River Plate play Boca

A memorable experience, for Breakfast they have European Champions League
Lunch Argentine Football
Dinner Mexican Football

Yeah good idea, if i only had a few grand lying around …………….

But would you not agree with the fact that if it were moved you would get alot less suits and more hardcore supporters?

Sorry Paul I know this is nothing to do with architecture.

I’m not so sure, I am sure that in the days of Jack Charlton too many ‘Corporate tickets’ were sold.

I am of the opinion that those that travel to the away games should have preference for domestic tickets.

I used to be in favour of the National Stadium being built at Abbotstown, which is part of Blanchardstown (not a thriving village, more of a mini-city) no matter what you think Stira.
But not any more.
On an average November/December day, the tailback at the M50/Blanchardstown roundabout takes about fifteen-twenty minutes to pass through coming from the city centre.
Coming from the airport, it takes fifteen-twenty minutes to get up the M50 offramp that would take you to Abbotstown.
They are currently building/planning to build several thousand houses, Pelletstown and Phoenix Park, on each side of the N3 road leading in to this roundabout (which by any standards is already as bad as the Red Cow).
The rail link in this part of town, an Arrow system, is already standing room only.
Capacity on the line is due to be increased by 21 per cent early next year with no further planned capacity increase.

In short, would you build the National Stadium on a corner of the Red Cow Roundabout?
So why any one thinks it’s a good idea to do it in Blanchardstown is beyond me

To all in favour of building the Stadium in Abbotstown, it’ll be impossible to recreate the unique pre-match atmosphere that surrounds Lansdowne road out at Abbotstown.

Baggott St and other routes to the stadium are famous on a match day and the reason so many fans love coming to Ireland.

Also we should be encouraging people not to use the car and Lansdowne road in very well serviced (Train, plane and seaport) by the dart NOW

Abbotstown may well be connected in the future but you just won’t be able to walk there and soak up the atmosphere as you can in Lansdowne road. Again its something that an economic argument overlooks but the atmosphere it what makes an experience. No matter how state of the art Abbotstown is it’ll lack the soul of Lansdowne road and its surroundings.

here here

The fact that Lansdowne is a 20 minute walk from St Stephen’s green means that anyone who can commute to the city centre (Where all routes lead anyway) can get to Lansdowne in a short time.

Atmosphere – what people love about Lansdowne is the fact you can have a few pints before or after the game, in one of many fine establishments and walk your way into town for a meal/night out afterwards – what facility is there for this in Abbotstown – nothing.

Lansdowne Road is also the worlds oldest International rugby ground – let’s keep this record going.

Redevelop the ground – allow for an expanded Dart Station and underpasses. Don’t just keep thinking of the economic value of the site – think of the history and the place it holds in peoples hearts.

Building the stadium in Abbotstown will make going to the game purely functional and soul less – it’s like comparing shopping in Liffey Valley with shopping in the city. One is a bland but worthy, devoid of character but convenient – the other is what gives us our soul, the quirks, the slight inconvenience but its ours, it deserves to be at Lansdowne.

sorry but that’s absolute nonsense. so what if it has character…it won’t anymore cos it’s going to be ripped down as for having a few pints and going out in dublin…that’s very conivient for dubs. what about the rest of the country.having it off the m50 means ease of access and departure…well maybe not ease but it’ll be easier than travelling all the way into the centre, parking and then going to lansdowne, getting back to the centre and trying to get out of the pale. someone said earlier about having it in limerick…it’s not a bad idea seeing as a majority of the rugby supporters come from munster … we want a new stadium not a pub crawl.

True there is a high concentration of rugby fans in Limerick but it is not true to say that the majority are based there.

It is easier for someone coming from outside Dublin to get to Dublin than it is to get to Limerick since all major roads do lead to Dublin. For example I commute to the Games from Drogheda and meet fans coming from Belfast on the Enterprise to see the game – and shock horror we walk from Connolly Station to Lansdowne Road.

Going to a game is not just about attending the actual match – its more than just that, there is the build up and the post game wind down. Fans from England, Scotland, Wales France and Italy all love the Lansdowne walk to and from the game. Irish fans do to.

Would the GAA abandon Croke Park for the inconvenience of its location – I think not. They have pride in ‘headquarters’.

The majority of the best CURRENT rugby players play for Munster.

There are far more supporters in Dublin and Belfast than in Munster. Munster has a small catchment in Cork, a big catchment in the small city of Limerick.

Regardless of which two schools play the 17th of March 2004 it will draw a crowd to Lansdowne at least twice the capacity of Thomond park.

I mistakenly said that the IRFU should sell Donnybrook, I take it back, I never played there but I have great memories of a very special ground and very special freinds.

If Jim McDaid and John O’Donaghue want a monument they should list the proposal on the NASDAQ and see how much support they get

Landsdowne or nothing

so what if it has character…it won’t anymore cos it’s going to be ripped down

its not the stadium that gives lansdowne its charecter its the place it is in. ireland is one of the few places left in europe with stadiums in city centre locations. both croke park and lansdowne are legendary for their pre/post match atmosphere, walking thru the streets singing and meeting other fans on the way. this would be completely killed off if it were moved to some desolate area surrounded by acres of carparking. and for what? the convenience of a minority who travel to the games from other counties in cars, if you are going to drive that far you can drive a bit further. anyway a third of the republics population are in dublin, a huge proportion by any capitals standards.
it would be a disaster if we were to sell this priceless commodity down the river for the sake of a few million euro.

Are people who say the stadium should be located outside of Dublin serious? The population of their entire counties wouldnt probably fill a decent stadium. The only city in Ireland is Dublin and its just about a city. Limerick, Kilkenny and others being branded cities is a joke, their small towns at best.

If it is to be built in Landsdowne, i really hope they put an underpass of the Dart in, i mean the fact that i feel i have to state something so obvious shows you just what i think of this country when it comes to plannign and common sense!

it was sarcasm rather than a joke.
judging by the support given to leinster last weekend i would say that most of the supporters are from the rest of ireland.
this should be judged on it’s merit as a stadium rather than the piss up before and after the match. does it meet the sandards for a world class stadium. will it bring the revenue. can it host a major final..ie uefa cup or even champions league as lets be honest if we build a stadium why not build one that can attract such an event. i agree that it’s a wonderful time every time i go to lansdowne but to be narrow minded enough to dismiss another location just because it doesn’t have the same pubs along the way…well need i say more. and there is no need to insult the countries other cities…dublin is not the only city…i agree about kilkenny though…great place for a piss up and pulling burds but a city!!! and i’m sure if it was in another city it would be full each time.

Fin you have hit the nail on the head regarding Leinster. When Leinster play in Donnybrook it is usually a sell out, it is one of the most intimidating grounds on the circuit.

When they switched to Landsdowne the smaller crowd couldn’t fill it, there was apparently a pitiful atmosphere at the game.

on a larger scale an 75-80,000 seater in Abbotstown would not work for a 30-40,000 crowd

I believe in the holy trinity

Headquarters for the summer

Donnybrook for the Winter

Landsdowne for the Spring

It seems that everyone gets so hung up about the stadium, the cost, where it should be, should it be croker………A national stadium is a statement of national pride. There are only a few occasions when the rest of the world gets to see your country live on their tv screens. One of these occasions is during large sporting occasions.

A modern really cool stadium says that the country knows what it is doing….says its not backward to the rest of the world. Lansdown doesn’t say that and nobody knows about Croke park unless your Irish.

My solution would be rebuild lansdown (the oldest international rugby ground is good enough reason) and develop a smaller sports village in abbotstown to complement the pool…..(which shows you what can be done and what an impact it makes on the world stage….european swim champs and 2003 games for a start)

I think to build anything at Abbotstown you are forgetting the essential quality of the GAA model.

Build a Headquarters, A regional Stadium (those all exist) and invest in community facilities.

Despite being an avid cyclist I do not advocate a velodrome.

Landsdowne and local facilities where they are sorely needed. The Current government will build anything at abbotstown just to save face.

Don’t disagree…local facilities need upgrading and expanding….GAA model works really well for the GAA but really doesn’t support other sports where their is a need for more specialised facilities to reach international levels.

I don’t mean going ahead with abbotstown as its proposed at the moment (without the stadium) but i think the idea of an sports campus to give a focal point for the olympic sports is a good idea. The idea is more about the preperation for major comps rather than holding them. A sort of Irish sports academy with a selection of world-class training facilities

That already exists at UL was paid for by an American Philanthropist in the mid 90’s

The Minister for Sport John O’Donoghue has called on the GAA to open up Croke Park to other sports, in the national interest.

A spokesman for the GAA has said it is unhelpful for outside interests to try to influence the matter.

All this comes just days after the IRFU proposed building a new stadium at Lansdowne Road.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1213/gaa.html

Putting the Leinster game in Lansdowne was a big mistake for the following reasons (1) Donnybrook works best on a Friday night – perfect for going somewhere between the office and home (2) people knew Lansdowne would have bugger all atmosphere and stayed away (3) tournament has not generated interest to date – first game and all that and (4) it’s not the same weather that we had in April for the finals.

But could you imagine it in an 80,000 seater – all that would be missing is the tumbleweed

why was it switched from donnybrook?
with stadiums like donnybrook/thomond and all those there would be no reason to have it in the 80,000 seater stadium. i would suggest that even games against the weaker teams like italy would be able to get 60,000 or so. as land as it was easy to get in and out of environs of the stadium

i still think it’s a shame they didn’t finish the bowl but it looks very well.

It looks great,

GAA spot on again given the site constraints, no doubt there was buckets of consultation with the local residents.

In discussions over a few pints on Saturday, the San Siro came up and the lads were wondering could it hold the key to a successful redevelopment of Landsdowne Road?

Could a largescale stadium be developed by sinking the structure into the ground thus reducing the height and the objections that would accompany a tall stadium?

Objection of the week was the DUP protest outside Ravenhill protesting at Ulster playing on a Sunday?:mad:

Response a 33-0 victory and more points than the DUP have clowns only two mind 😀

i think if anyone objects they should be lynched!!! 🙂

possibly… wasn’t that thrown around for a while?
and brazil to play ireland…now forgive me if i am wrong but would that not attract 80,000?

80,000 Brazillians and 3 Million Irish

lol…. i don’t doubt.

Braga is centrepiece of Euro 2004 project
Thu 8 January, 2004 02:52

By Kevin Fylan

LISBON (Reuters) – A four-year stadium building programme costing more than 600 million euros (416.2 million pounds) culminated in the unveiling of a work of art in the Portuguese city of Braga at the end of December, giving Euro 2004 organisers the festive gift they wanted.

The Braga Municipal Stadium is hardly a name to stir the heart but the ground itself, built with a million cubic metres of rock blasted out from an old quarry in the hills above the city, will provide the tournament’s most spectacular setting.

Designed by Portuguese architect Eduardo Souto de Moura, it features just two stands instead of the usual four, is screwed into a hillside with steel cables and boasts a huge video screen at one of the unused ends.

Portugal won the rights to the tournament in 1999 when a promise of seven new and three rebuilt stadiums helped the country to see off a strong bid from neighbour Spain and a joint proposal from Austria and Hungary.

The final two grounds to be completed, the new Braga stadium and the rebuilt Bessa of Boavista, were inaugurated on December 31. With a little over five months to go before the start of the tournament, organisers believe their pledge has been fulfilled.

PROMISES MET

“All the promises made in 1999 have been met,” Portuguese Soccer Federation chief and organising committee chairman Gilberto Madail told reporters on a tour of the stadiums last month.

“You can see, here and now, that the stadiums are built, they are a reality, and the access is in place. When people return for the tournament, all the infrastructure will be completed.”

The Braga stadium was the most ambitious of the 10 projects begun in 2000.

Benfica’s new Stadium of Light in Lisbon can hold 65,000 spectators and should provide a fitting setting for games such as France v England in the opening group phase, as well as the final on July 4.

The far smaller Algarve stadium, pitched between the resort towns of Faro and Loule on the south coast, is another appealing design. Boavista’s compact Bessa, in Oporto, will give fans a close look at the action by pressing them up against the pitch.

Across town from Bessa, FC Porto’s bright and airy new stadium is perhaps the most attractive of the lot, designed and built at a total cost of 125 million euros.

COLOUR SCHEMES

Vibrant colour schemes at toybox stadiums built by Tomas Taveira in the towns of Leiria and Aveiro could annoy some spectators and possibly prove a distraction for the players.

With the stadiums finished, attention will turn to finishing access roads, car parks and television compounds, as well as other infrastructure such as the new railway station at Faro-Loule.

Benfica’s stadium, Porto’s Dragao, the Alvalade of Sporting Lisbon — also designed by Taveira — and Boavista’s Bessa should earn their keep after the tournament as home grounds.

However, many of the others will be largely empty in a country where most first division teams draw just a few thousand fans.

The three Taveira stadiums have been given multi-coloured seats, with the intention of making them look full even when they are virtually empty.

For the moment, the fact that the stadiums exist at all gives the Portuguese something to be proud of, says Madail.

“There were doubts expressed about whether we could do what we promised to do and, painfully, a lot of those doubts came from within Portugal,” Madail said.

“What we’ve done is to show that a small country is capable of achieving something spectacular.”

Originally posted by trace
“There were doubts expressed about whether we could do what we promised to do and, painfully, a lot of those doubts came from within Portugal,” Madail said.

“What we’ve done is to show that a small country is capable of achieving something spectacular.”

would a similiar thing have been said here if we got the euro 2008?

Did anyone see Gillian Bowler on Questions and answers last night?

50m Euro a year a stadium is worth to the economy.

Gillian was CEO/owner of budget travel prior to takeover and chaired the Tourism review policy review group that reported in October 2003.

A city centre site is preferable, urgency is also essential. She said

absolutely

Where are you going to get the 80,000 regular spectators to fill it….

A bit of realism…lets have a great new stadium but ones thats ultimatley a viable entity

we covered this before maybe not in this thread but before anyway but i think build it and people will come. it’s a monument to us and for us. it will be full for most games…

I agree but for McDaid to say that Irish designers couldn’t design an 80,000 or similar at Landsdowne is an insult to the Indigenous desin industry.

To dismiss it without looking at sinkingthe pitch was premature.

City Centre stadiums deliver longer visits by fans. Abbotstown would equal an anywhere experience. i.e. Dortmund or Dordrecht.

Dublin is a special City it deserves two special stadiums at its heart.

while not many may have any experience in designing stadium of such size it doesn’t mean it can’t be done by a native. if it is easier and cheaper to get a foreign architect with lots of experience then i can’t argue with that. he may get an irish architect to sipervise or collabrate which would then give the necessary experience.

Originally posted by FIN
we covered this before maybe not in this thread but before anyway but i think build it and people will come. it’s a monument to us and for us. it will be full for most games…

And maybe we could call it the
“Field of Dreams”

Why is Dublin a special city?

Also because it has retained a large urban core that is vibrant about 20 hours per day.

All the best tourist facilities in Dublin are at its core with the exception being Ballsbridge.

that’s because all the money goes to dublina and it’s surronding puppets…

How is Dublin, with its dereliction, vomit, litter, vomit, poor arcitecture and unfriendly populace any different to any other city its size? The buildings are shorter, but that is not something that makes it special. Rather, a lot of the architectural mistakes are a result of the decades of interesting developments being crushed because of scale or appropriateness breeding a set of developers who build the cheapest box to contain the desired amount of floorspace possible, because anything out of the ordinary is too much trouble. Now, I can understand not wanting interesting modern architecture in the heart of Venice or Rome, but what is special about Dublin?

Andrew I am in Favour of an interesting piece of architecture going into a location that is as close to Central Dublin as is possible.

Have a look at Garrethace’s Cathedrals of Commerce thread. A lot of the issues you have raised have been discussed there.

Dublin is a good City at worst, it is a great place to shop, eat, have a drink or go to a match.

It has an atmosphere that is attractive to visitors, I don’t think that an edge city stadium would deliver a similar atmosphere.

i diagree. what is needed is the organisation like in other countries and which has started with the different clubs providing the athmosphere.

Fin could you please elaborate on your definition of organisational structure?

right! what i mean is the football clubs organise so as to provide people with a focal point to go to before kick off. at this focal point then they may do whatever(different people have different ideas about fun). this wouldn’t cost the clubs at all as all they are providing is their fan base with a common place to meet. it works woith football clubs in italy. throughout the stadium different areas have a certain type of people. take juventus. in the stadia deli allpi there is the curva nord/ curva sud / the fighters and other fan clubs. this would increase the athmosphere in the stadium. this may also increase the chances that ordinary fans may stay around after the match in dublin to experience what happens afterwards with these clubs. it’s just a thought!

A very good thought too!

I lament the decline in domestic soccer here, particularly Shamrock Rovers.

Who have stumbled from tenancy to tenancy for 16 years now.

I also liked the Wimbledon proposal a few years ago, it would have been a real diaspora project. London diaspora returning to make a contribution to the cultural life of Dublin.

In the absence of a viable club football income only a joint IRFU/FAI venture is possible.

I therefore think that the government should listen to those who will ultimately be left holding the baby post completion.

It is a viable project to build a 65-80,000 seat stadium at Landsdowne Road if the existing stadium is demolished.

The stadium turned 90 degrees and it’s pitch put substantially lower than the existing height.

Thus eliminating the single most obvious planning objection.

Commercial viability of the stadium might possibly see a proposal such as the Wimbledon project emerge again.

i liked that at the time also. however the premier league wouldn’t sanction it and i think neither would fifa. playing in another country. this seems to be an excuse that the pout however i believe cardiff city in the 1st division isn’t in england…please feel free to contradict me on this one… it’sthe same excuse they give for not including rangers and celtic into premiership.

the hought could also transfer to rugby in the shape of the 4 provinces. and i do believe too that the gov should listen to the 2 associations. however will they?

is there space for an 80,000 stadium at lansdowne? ifthere was that would be an inclination for me to start supporting that particular project. if they could build the 60,000 with the option to extend to 80,000 then that i think would be viable. they could see how much it’s used/ how much money it generates and then decide to add the extra 20,000 or even more( i wish).

1 question though. they say a decision is needed quick but if they do tear down lansdowne. where will we play our home games when this is going on? or will it be a stand at a time like croker. this will reduce the capacity by lots during construction.

I think it would have to be all or nothing.

Although the GAA might provide Croke Park on a temporary basis once the England-Ireland rugby match wasn’t held there. That would give them about two years.

The good thing Landsdowne already has is that it has full planning for at least 56,000 spectators.

Originally posted by Diaspora
A very good thought too!

I lament the decline in domestic soccer here, particularly Shamrock Rovers.

The league just had it’s most sucessfull season in years. Just because Rovers are dead does not mean the domestic league is. Far from it. Clubs like Bohs, Cork and Longford do very well and have decent crowds and strong local followings. The problem is that people need to switch off Sky and go and support their own league and not some British corporate entity like Celtic and Liverpool.

Ireland is the only country in Europe were the poeple think a foreign league is their own league. The Irish are deeply unsophisticated race who do everything that box of lights and sound in the corner of the living room tells them to do. We are exceptionally backward and oafish in many ways. More like stupid American trailer trash than Europeans.

Also domestic soccer in this country has to compete with a political and religious organisation which dabbles in sport called the GAA and also rugby. Put this all together and the League of Ireland seem rather sucessfull all things considered.

i don’t get your point about the gaa, the gaa sports are played to a very high level and involve all the things you say: switching off the tv, supporting your local team etc.

A bit harsh I think Brian.

I think the GAA has done wonderful things in this country, it has provided community facilities in all 32 counties.

I love the rovers ultras website and the rub they have with the Bohs fans. I agree that league of Ireland needs to be strengthened.

But until the FAI adopt the same bottom up approach as the GAA this will never happen.
I know that there are many excellent amatuer clubs but there is a link missing somewhere.

Rugby is unique in that it has many feeder schools that ensure the numbers so it also has an excellent network.

Far from trailor trash the professionals need a stadium that will inspire them.

Dublin cannot support two 80,000-seater stadia. There’s no point. They’ll never both be full at the same time!

Whatever we do now should serve the whole country’s needs for the next 30-50 years, at least. Well within that time scale – in fact, long, long before, certainly before the decade is out – Croke Park will be an ‘open’ venue, purely for financial reasons: it needs to pay its way. It can’t, with its staff, forever stay closed from September to May. Don’t worry, it’ll happen soon enough and without fuss.

Lansdowne Road should be redeveloped as a 40-50,000 stadium – with a pitch big enough, as the IRFU have hinted, to take GAA games. Croke Park is a white elephant for half the summer, when the upper tier can’t be filled. Much better to play the less attractive championship football and hurling fixtures there, when nobody’s playing rugby or soccer. And there’s a guaranteed atmosphere.

You scratch me, I’ll scratch you.

Rugby only needs Croke Park for the England game every second year and whenever the World Cup washes up on these shores. Soccer would only need it for Brazil (once every twenty years) and at most (and only in very good times at that!) twice during the bi-annual qualifying tournaments for UEFA and FIFA championships.

This ain’t rocket science. How come we’re still in remedial class in this subject?

i agree with brian as regards the gaa. and times when both stadiums will be in action is a rarity. and to suggest that we will only fill it when the jaffa’s come over or when brazil come is i think remedial. it may not be full for say against the faroe islands but even then it would be a large crowd ( just to see how many goals we score). nobody knows if it will be full because nobody can look into the future that’s why i suggested build 60,000 with the option for 20,000 more.

i am with trace on this. now what to do with the abbotstowns lands?

how about a theme park?

Latest Image

Designed by Behnisch?

Really the latest image this time….

Its quite small – some one might have a better image.

yeah..like that..with hopefully ability for expansion over ends….when the need arises…

Is that a closable roof over it? Doesn’t look like it is!

It’s a definite improvement. How long will translucent roof last I wonder.

Don’t think there’s any room for expansion at the ends.

verrrry clever design – it’s quite high in the middle, and dips right down to almost bungalow height at the goal ends. Therefore preempting alot of objections from the nearby houses. read the story on http://www.rte.ie/news … no planned disruptions to the DART!!! well seeing as it doesn’t run through there for the next 18 months on weekends anyway!!!

A slightly large image I think.
Really nice design!!!

Here…

Image:
http://www.ireland.com/images/2004/0121/1074675697125.html

indo said something about another stadium in abbotstown for 60,000…anyone know anything about that?

The new landsdowne Looks really good I think. Arup did an excellent job in eliminating potential planning problems.

The only decision is do the government cough up the €83m they are asked for or give the Abbotstown lands to a developer buddy. The lands are conservatively worth more than €83m at Abbotstown.

They should go with this and sell the Abbotstown lands on the open market to pay for it.

More important than capacity this looks the part, and I think it would have the atmosphere of a larger stadium. Old Trafford holds 6000 more than this but looks vastly inferior.

🙂

did arup design it or was there an architect involved? nice stadium. if only we had 10 of them 5 years ago, we could be holding european and world championships. damn you portugal with your efficiency

The picture in the Indo has (c) Arup Sport

The funny thing is that if the GAA stadia are counted we do have a lot of 30,000+ Stadia

I always think of The Gaelic Grounds in Limerick everytime Thomond Park sells out

Fugging GAA make a mockery of sport in this country. no better than unionists with their hardline no compromise winner takes all we are the winners attitude.

every time i see sean kelly on tv i clench my fists. ggrrrrrrr………….

If you look carefully at the image Paul linked to you’ll see (C) Arup Sport on the side of the stadium where the stadium name might be. Very cute.

There is still no official mention as to where Ireland will play their games if this goes ahead. I presume they are hoping Croke Park doors will eventually open up! That will be historic day, the first foreign sport played in Croke Park. It will be a sell out no matter who we are playing?

Not the first foreign games played. There have been a few American Football games played there over the years.

Originally posted by blue
That will be historic day, the first foreign sport played in Croke Park.

It maybe wasn’t the first, but I was at the Notre Dame-Navy American football game that was played in Croke Pk in 1996.

I think the Arup Lansdowne Rd plan looks great – its definately what we should go for. I wouldn’t hold me breath about GAA opening Croker, though. I think IRFU should play games in Belfast during the construction phase, don’t know what FAI can do.

was the olympic games cermony not regarded as a foreign sport????

It wasn’t sport, twas a crap concert 😉

Neither is American Football a sport its just well staged entertainment like WWF wrestling. 😀

lovl…. was there any event staged there?? and wasn’t it all very friendly concert though!!!

grid iron has a advantage of wwf in that’s it’s real..ish!

Looks fantastic, on the news last night (on what was the worst report of all time) they said the roofs are angles to reduce the exposure to the elements to a substantial degree.
I can see Croke Pk being opened at the next AGM.

in today’s indo!!!!

Gerry McDermott – Exclusive: Lansdowne multi-million euro blunder
Monday January 26th 2004

CHOOSING Lansdowne Road as Ireland’s National Stadium is a mistake that will cost this country hundreds of millions of euro.

So insists a financial expert who maintains that the stadium could prove to be over 10 times more expensive to the state than building in Abbotstown.

The IRFU’s headquarters, the current home of Ireland’s international rugby and soccer teams, is expected to be chosen tomorrow by the Government for a €250m revamp.

The decision should bring to an end a five-year debate on the provision of the national stadium but a top expert on stadia insists that Abbotstown remains the most cost-effective location for the state.

The expert told the Irish Independent that when the new-look Lansdowne Road opens its doors it will prove to have been a much more expensive option than its Abbotstown rival.

The Irish-based expert, who agreed to talk solely on the basis that his name would not be revealed, is a planning and engineering consultant with a significant background in the forward planning of major sports infrastructure. He has followed the stadium saga since its infancy and is well versed in all aspects of the debate.

He firmly believes that the IRFU’s hopes of having the stadium built by 2008 is overly optimistic, claiming that a finishing date beyond 2010 is much more realistic.

“An Environmental Impact Study will be required which could be quite time consuming in preparation and eventual approval together, of course, with the planning process,” said the expert.

“The resident associations and city councillors are already making serious noises and are extremely unhappy that they are going to lose their local section of the Dodder Linear Park. Then there is a further serious delay factor associated with the demolition work before any construction can take place.

“A figure of €250 million has been quoted but the real price will be the tender price. If there are delays then that price is going to increase and the cost could easily double to over €500m at the end of the day.

“On construction costs alone an adequate sized Abbotstown stadium would be of less cost to the state than the 50,000 Lansdowne Road stadium and, more importantly, can be completed in a much shorter time period, quite likely by early 2007. That’s an important point to make in light of the figures that have been tossed around to the contrary.”

The expert added that if rugby and soccer internationals have to be moved out of Ireland during the construction phase then the loss to the economy could be in excess of €700m.

“I think Croke Park must not be factored in as a back-up because of the GAA’s expanding gaelic games programme. That venue will be fully taxed to meet their own growing needs. The limiting physical environment outside the Croke Park stadium area must also be factored in,” he added.

With the population of the Dublin Metropolitan Area expected to rise to two million by 2041 and 700,000 in the adjoining counties, the consultant argues that the capacity requirement of any stadium design should be based on the needs of a period of at least 40 to 50 years ahead.

“In any basic calculation that figure would be at least 80,000 capacity for our international games.

“Lansdowne Road falls well short of such design capacity requirement at 50,000, which is only a 1,000 increase on the current attendance at rugby internationals, and where the current capacity need for some time has been well in excess of 65,000.

“There will be no room to expand the 50,000 capacity at Lansdowne whereas a 65,000 seater stadium at Abbotstown could be constructed within a shell built to accommodate 80,000 people.”

The consultant estimates that the limited capacity of Lansdowne would lead to a loss of up to seven million seats over a normal stadium lifespan of at least 50 years.

“Taking everything into consideration the overall cost and loss to the economy, in the widest sense, of going forward with the Lansdowne choice would be in excess of €4billion over the lifetime of the stadium.

“Do we then really have to do a cost comparison when the Lansdowne Road proposal could work out to be more then 10 times the cost and loss to the state than the higher capacity Abbotstown stadium?” he asked.

The consultant also claims that when the necessary time horizon is taken into account Abbotstown will eventually be closer to the centre population within the Greater Dublin Area while Lansdowne Road will become more peripheral.

It’s location beside the M50 and the N3, just 1.5km from Blanchardstown town centre, and close to Dublin airport also adds to the attractiveness of Abbotstown, he added.

“There is still a role for Lansdowne and it should be retained and used for interprovincial games like the Heineken Cup and club games but Abbotstown would be the venue for our major international sports.”

The consultant admitted he is a supporter of the proposed stadium at Abbotstown within a realistic time frame and believes that it represents a major opportunity to develop world class sporting facilities for use by the whole island on the 500 acres of state land.

“We would be envy of many capital cities and nations and it is crucial that this state asset must not be prostituted,” he said.

Unlike Lansdowne, a stadium at Abbotstown could have a footprint design for an international athletics track which would leave Ireland in a prime position to host major championships and become a bidder to host the Olympic Games.

The Consultant was impressed by the Architectural Framework Plan presented to the Government in February 2001 by the Munich architects Behnish Behnish & Partners where the new stadium would be the central within such a Campus.

never believe an expert who wont put his name to it….

“The Irish-based expert, who agreed to talk solely on the basis that his name would not be revealed, is a planning and engineering consultant with a significant background in the forward planning of major sports infrastructure. He has followed the stadium saga since its infancy and is well versed in all aspects of the debate.”

yea…could it be a expert in the mind of the writer!!! mind u it’s not the sun/star or similiar papers but then again that doesn’t mean it’s not an over active imagination by the writer.
but i do agree with it

Originally posted by FIN
…Ireland in a prime position to host major championships and become a bidder to host the Olympic Games.

The Sports Campus Ireland certainly looks attractive, but does anyone really believe we can build it. Much as I’d love it to happen, we’re never going to host the Olympic Games. Greece is the smallest country ever to host the games and they only got it because of their history (quite rightly).

Originally posted by FIN
It’s location beside the M50 and the N3, just 1.5km from Blanchardstown town centre, and close to Dublin airport

Lansdowne Rd is 1.5km from the city centre, where all the hotels are, and where fans travelling from other parts of the country arrive. Its also got a railway line, which Abbotstown doesn’t.

I can see the concerns about capacity, but Abbotstown would have the potential to be a white elephant, whereas we know what type of events Lansdowne attracts.

Landsdowne is a short term solution, a capacity of 50,000 is just not enough ….

We will end up looking at the whole Abbotstown question again in 20 years time.

too true and then we will say the exact same things and they may even try to redevelop lansdowne again!!!!

Was there not talk of using the old glass factory in Ringsend at one stage? What ever happened to that as an idea or option?

Dublin business favours Lansdowne venue

A survey carried out by Dublin Chamber of Commerce shows that four out of five businesses in Dublin favour a Lansdowne Road development over Abbotstown site.

The survey of the Chamber’s 2,000 plus members, carried out over the past ten days, is consistent with an earlier poll carried out in April of last year.

The 2003 poll showed that 96 per cent of businesses in Dublin consider that a second stadium is needed, while 76 per cent said that it should be in a venue close to the city centre, with most favouring a Lansdowne Road redevelopment.

The Minister for Sport, Mr O’Donoghue is expected to make his recommendation to Cabinet this week.

The estimated cost of the stadium is €250 million, of which the IRFU and FAI would contribute €83 million. With some €84 million of the total cost expected to return to the Exchequer in PAYE, PRSI, and VAT, the organisations put the net cost to the State at only €83 million.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/2415100?view=Eircomnet

the sound coming from the locals and the planners however is different. it could be jammed in the planning process for years with no guarantee for success. where as the abbotstown won’t have as many vocal, local opposition. and as i said earlier the 60,000 with the option is the best possible solution to the debate as it gives us a sizeable stadium now with future expansion optionable. the reason for abbotstown is that it is government land so won’t cost anything(if the gov develop it in conjunction with everybody). if there is suitable land for a development being the same then by all means but that doesn’t seem the case.

Regarding Landsdowne

The researcher for the Indo didn’t look at the map carefully enough, the linear park is actually on the other side of the river.

The locals will in fact lose nothing, the design has been carried out to ensure that light is protected for the neighbours of the stadium.

I think that if an integrated strategy between the GAA and the new stadium is agreed everyone can win.

Early GAA championship double headers in Landsdowne and major internationals in Croker.

One of the major reasons for the GAA not to play ball thus far, has been that the IRFU/FAI have had nothing to offer the GAA.

With this stadium they have a major carrot to help the moderates in the GAA who seek change.

The crowd on Friday night was big enough to justify calculations of a 40,000 crowd in landsdowne 4-5 times a year from Leinster as well. You would never see 60-80000 attend a Leinster match unless it were a Euro final.

The lands at abbottstown should be sold, if a 60-80000 seater is to be built, Abbotstown would be the worst location after the Red Cow roundabout.

if it goes ahead in abbotstown then lansdowne doesn’t have to be touched so leinster can still play there and get those crowds but if the population increase is correct then we have to cater for the expected numbers in 10/15/20 years time and not just now.
there is problems alright but these are only proposals. a lot of detail design has to be done yet, on both schemes.

If Landsdowne is developed, what is to happen to the two old club houses beside the west stand? Are they for the chop?

“The Irish-based expert, who agreed to talk solely on the basis that his name would not be revealed, is a planning and engineering consultant with a significant background in the forward planning of major sports infrastructure. He has followed the stadium saga since its infancy and is well versed in all aspects of the debate.”

If this unamed source is as qualified as he says he is then (in my humble opinion) he is surely working for Magahy and Co on sports campus Ireland, surely they employ the most qualified people to do the job – such as Irish based experts.

on the news…lansdowne and a sports campus/school of excellence type thing in abbotstown

Talk about a political answer – as in Yes the PD’s got their way (and in this case the better answer methinks) – but No – Bertie is getting a “school of excellence” in Abbotstown so it’s win/win.

or lose/lose…whatever your take is on the situation. personally i think none of them could score in a whorehouse.

http://breaking.tcm.ie/text/story.asp?j=113468966&p=yy34698z9&n=113469909&x=
http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=50147

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0127/stadium.html

“The Government has announced plans to develop Lansdowne Road in Dublin as the country’s new National Stadium.

The final cost of the stadium has been estimated in the region of €300 million, and is expected to be completed by 2008.

The Minister for Sport, John O’Donoghue, has said that he does not foresee any major problems with the new stadium getting planning permission.

Today’s announcement has been welcomed by the IRFU and the FAI, both of which have committed to the project.

The Government has also committed itself to the development – when money is available – of a new sport campus involving an indoor arena at Abbottstown.

No money wasted – Ahern

The Taoiseach has denied that money had been wasted on the Abbotstown project.

Bertie Ahern told the Dáil that feasibility studies had been carried out, and that these would be useful in the future development of sports facilities on the site.

He said that while some existing facilities had been moved from Abbotstown, they would have to have been moved anyway as they required more space.

Mr Ahern added that Campus Stadium Ireland would remain the owner of the site, and would continue to develop sports facilities there.

Mr Ahern was responding to Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins, who claimed that by pushing ahead in a ‘bull headed manner’ against the best advice, the Taoiseach had caused a huge waste of taxpayers’ money.”

Nah the un-named consulants got nothing, finally the Abbotstown proposal is dead, how many €m’s have been wasted.

The Government has also committed itself to the development – when money is available – of a new sport campus involving an indoor arena at Abbottstown.

Read as: “it would be nice idea to build a new sport campus involving an indoor arena at Abbottstown but it will never happen”

lol

well great, after all the wait, they got the right answer.

now, what we need it the reopening of the phoenix park tunnel so people from galway can get the train to lansdowne road.

Can anyone tell me for definite will this new national stadium at Lansdowne Road have a retractable roof. According to the Irish Times it will, but I dont believe them – looking at the image of the stadium it does look like it.
Personally I think it should have one as then the stadium could be used everyweek for both indoor and outdoor events.

Definitely no retractable roof, nor will there ever be one since the two ends of the stadium are much lower than the two main stands (which are also curved in shape), so I doublt it’d be technically feasible.

The new stadium looks a lot like the City of Manchester stadium where Manchester City now play in my opinion, except the goal ends there are two-tiered whereas Lansdowne will only have a single tier ar each end.

Yes city of Manchester stadium has two tiers that go all the way around the ground in bowl form, and each of the side stands has an extra one.
When this was built for the commonwealth games there was 1 tier at each end. As far as I know after the games they excavated downwards and built a whole new tier around the whole ground.
I dont think there’ll be much scope for enlargement in Lansdowne in this way in the future but you never know.

If you ask me the best bet was a 60-65,000 seater in abbotstown. This could be extended to meet any future needs we would have which cannot be said for Lansdowne.

Also Abbotstown was to facilitate athletics so moveable seats would probably have been provided on order for a track to be used.

Having everything together in 1 sports campus which could,ve been gradually built over the years could, nay I say it, brought the olympics or such here. Why is the cheap way out always picked. The benefit in solid investment is huge

Lansdowne has been chosen. Good sense has prevailed.

well said niall. but this is what we get for having a leader without the balls to push through his convictions and promises. 😡
he is dictacted by a woman who, and i dunno know if i can say this but what the hell, looks as if she never played any sport in her life in the most important decision regarding irish sport in the future. but i can’t change that and we are getting a small stadium so lets fast track the planning and get building.:cool:

its also true she doesn’t have a science background but she is the hero of irish science. her athletisism has nothing to do with it.

i hope they do go ahead with putting training grounds and so on in abbotstown, gradually build up infrastructure, work towards a rail link etc, but to plonk a massive stadium there would have been stupid.

Originally posted by notjim
its also true she doesn’t have a science background but she is the hero of irish science.

how? and is it her or the civil servants on her staff?

Originally posted by notjim

her athletisism has nothing to do with it.

true but an interest in sport and a idea of what is good for the sport of this country in paramount.

Originally posted by notjim

i hope they do go ahead with putting training grounds and so on in abbotstown, gradually build up infrastructure, work towards a rail link etc, but to plonk a massive stadium there would have been stupid.

gradually! just like everything else in this country. 20 years down the line we may be still talking about it ..

Will Lansdowne be built under the new fast track infrastructure law being brought in for the Metro (read Roads )?

And where are the matches going to be played during redeveloped? I didn’t hear anyone from the IRFU or the FAI answer that question yet. Bet they are still hoping for Crokers to be opened up.

Can we expect a announcement soon by the GAA that they are going to lease out the ground, now that the decision has been made?
😮

it was never explained at all. i asked that earlier i think and if the gaa don’t play ball then they will have to move across the lake which was the reason for the decision in the first place…

Building work on the new stadium isn’t expected to begin until 2006, after the WC qualifiers are over. I suppose they’re hoping that the GAA will finally see sense by then and recognise that they can’t keep wasting an asset like Croke Park the way they’ve been doing and let FAI/IRFU rent it until Lansdowne is built.

I beginning to doubt that fast track legislation gets passed at all, which is a great shame. Apparently there’s a lot of opposition to it even from within the cabinet. I’ve read somewhere that Kapitan McDowell is dead set against it because he’s afraid they’ll fast track an incinerator in his constituency (or something like that).

I wonder could the Americans be persuaded to blast the PDs into space as part of their Mars exploration programme? McDowell could argue points of law without actually doing anything all he wants with the rocks up there.

ahhhh! my idea of a ditactor is looking better and better…i volunteer….

I still can’t believe the decision’s been made!
On Prime Time last night – a whopping €18 million was spent on feasability studies for Abbotstown – €18 million!

😡

That is only 285.7143 times the An Taisce grant that was cut due to ‘cutbacks’.

ok..changed my mind…fair play to them!!!!!

Who Maghahy & Co?

nope..don’t know who they are but i preumne the consultants…the gov!!!! an 18mil well spent…

Is JP McManus going to fork out his portion of the wasted expenditure on the Stadium I wonder?

i thought that was only if the stadium got a go ahead and nothing to do with consultation.

It never was going to get a go ahead, because it was to be put in the wrong place.

Jim McDaid lasted about 1 day in Reynolds first government, that says a lot.

Berites dream has crashed and we’ve paid for it, not guys like McManus who are shrewd enough to qualify all offers they make with clauses that protect them from the clowns we continue to elect.

Hello, a roundabout in Blanchardstown for a National Stadium. I am going to start a new thread Irelands ten worst roundabouts.

hey, if we are having sports facilities out at abbotstown do you think we can have a new race course to replace the much missed phoenix park race course. leopardstown and punchestown are much too far away.

and of course, it fits in nicely with the ***town format for dublin area race tracks.

If McCreevy has anything to do with it, it will probably have one. 😉

well it’s crazy that a country as keen on horseracing as this one doesn’t have a proper metropolitian racecourse.

btw apologise to fairyhouse, if punchestown is included in the dublin area, then so should fairyhouse.

Maghahy & Co were the key people who recieved and channelled the incredible amounts of money spent on the feasability studies. The deal, which was as a percentage of the expected cost of the facility has been the subject of an investigation by the Dail Public Accounts Committee. Paddy Teahon (ex civil servant) was involved in heading up the Campus board and Magahy were previously involved in Temple Bar Properties during the development of Temple Bar.

either a lucky man or very very good at negociating contracts

Dubs show such resentment to those “from the country” but yet things that are in the “country” are classed as in the Dublin area when it suits. Punchestown, along with Naas and the Curragh racecourses are in Kildare, Fairyhouse is in Meath. While they are accessible from Dublin they are not “in the area”. Get over it, Leopardstown is grand

what are you on about niall, when i said dublin area i meant accessible from dublin but, and this is my point, not in dublin. there is a big horse racing community here in dublin and certainly enough to support a metropolitain racetrack, leopardstown is a nice racecourse, but it is at the very edge of city and hard to get to, certainly you wouldn’t go there from the city centre for an evening meet, this might improve if the luas is extended. anyway, horse racing as a spectator sport is not a country persuit and, anyway, in ireland, these days, a division between country people and city people is artificial.

ah I was takin the piss a bit. I’m from a large town about 45km from Dublin. However so many Dublin people think that life stops when you go beyond the M50 and that everyone is an “inbred culchie” if your not from the city. Like because I’m not from the city its nearly assumed I live on a farm and spend my saturdays servicing my septic tank!!!

Anyway indeed with the completion of luas and the M50 hopefully access to Leopardstown will be better. I’d love to see another racecourse in the city as a big horseracing fan myself.

horses running around in a circle… i don’t see the attraction at all..

Originally posted by niall murphy
ah I was takin the piss a bit. I’m from a large town about 45km from Dublin. However so many Dublin people think that life stops when you go beyond the M50 and that everyone is an “inbred culchie” if your not from the city. Like because I’m not from the city its nearly assumed I live on a farm and spend my saturdays servicing my septic tank!!!

Niall, I think you are generallising Dublin peoples views of people who are not from Dublin. To state something like that is to hold the same view of Dublin people as you seem to think they hold of people who are not from Dublin.

Niall, I don’t mean to sound harsh or anything like that I just find that view to be a bit strange at times.

I have no problem with Dublin people. Its just there exists an attitude that everywhere that isnt Dublin is equal to “down the country”!!

This is totally off topic so I shall stop now.

See Brian Kerr in the Herald today is calling for work on Lansdowne to be started as soon as possible. Just want to bring the thread topic back

Niall, you decided to take this off topic, generalise twice about Dublin peoples attitude to people from outside Dublin and then refuse to discuss it further. I think with that in mind you should not bring up this debate again. 🙂

I would say the residents of Landsdowne will probably put a halt to Kerrs call for Landsdowne to be started as soon as possible. It should be interesting to see anyway.

yeah..i think it was more in hope than anything…probably trying to get the gov to fast track it knowing that if it slips from the public’s mind then they might not whereas if they donb’t now they run the risk of pissing off all the football and rugby fans who are voters…

I think the objectors will find it quite difficult to object on valid grounds.

It will be a smaller capacity than rugby days.

It will be lower on the Landsdown road end once the extended set back is put into place.

It’s very well designed so architectural merit doesn’t come into it.

I’m sure a few people will object. But there is a case law precent from the U2 concerts in 1997, that favours the IRFU

smaller than rugby days??? u mean the irfu agreed to downsize it’s stadium!!!!!

Yeah it currently holds about 56,500 when the terraces are standing room. So it is going to be smaller for rugby matches although the 35,000 for soccer is quite an improvement.

I don’t know how they are going to work the schoolboy tickets now though ina seats only venue

internationals for 2 quid a ticket, ahhhhhhh and you didn’t even appreciate it at the time;)

3 quid in my time…yeah! those were the days…standing in the freezing cold but kept warm by brandy or whiskey!!!! and then drinking in the pubs hoping they won’t ask for id!!! ha,ha… i can’t believe that they reduced their own capacity…daft! still ..
i was watching bolton play last week ( i think in the carling cup) and i thought that the reebok looks very similiar..execpt of course they have 2 tiers at the ends..

perhaps Lansdowne can physically accomodate 56,000 people currently but the official capacity is 49,000 give or take a few hundred. safety etc probably is to do with this so in fact an increase of 1000 will happen if they provide for 50,000 people. however it will be 50,000 people in better comfort and conditions than in the current situation

Given the endless debate and prevarication on this issue I think the best thing is that a decision has finally been made. Be it good or be it bad, only time shall tell.
Kevin, Ranelagh

http://www.rte.ie

😀 🙂 😉 :p

i was reading in the times yesterday that even though the fai are putting up money there is still some trouble with ownership rights. basically that the fai will still have to pay rental. this may de-rail efforts.
and is there any other images apart from the widely available one. like how it looks from a pedestrain point of view..etc..

“80% of Irish voters believe the GAA should make Croke Park available for rugby and soccer matches during the planned redevelopment of the Lansdowne Road stadium, according to an Irish Times/TNS mrbi poll published today.

Some 12% believe it should not be opened and 8% have no opinion. Support for opening Croker to other games is evenly spread across all regions, age groups, social groups and party supporters.

The poll was taken on Monday and Tuesday last week among a national quota sample of 1,000 voters at 100 sampling points in the 42 Dáil constituencies.

When reconstruction work begins on Lansdowne Road, which is owned by the IRFU who in turn rent the stadium to the FAI, international soccer and rugby matches may have to be played in Britain. Unless, of course, the GAA vote to amend their Rule 42, which bans rugby and soccer from being played at the association’s Dublin headquarters.

Debate on the issue is expected at April’s GAA Congress.”

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2004/0209/crokepark.html

heard that on the radio this morning alright. but they won’t listen to the public.

Your are probably right,

I suspect that if soccer and rugby fans got in the habit of going to Croker there might not be too many empty GAA matches early in the season. After all few sports offer two matches for the price of one.

i am sure they will open it now, they have won at this point; a high quality medium sized stadium in Dublin is the best they could of hoped for.

they big question is weather they will open up the provinsional stadia too, lots of these are in bad repair.

i don’t think they need to, that’s their major worry that if they let the infidels into croker then all the grounds will be over run.

State seeks €20m security on Lansdowne
From:ireland.com
Friday, 19th August, 2005

Government funding for the development of the new Lansdowne Road stadium has been suspended pending the resolution of a dispute which centres on a demand that the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) provide security of €20 million in order to safeguard public money advanced to the project during its planning and preparatory stages.

According to internal Football Association of Ireland (FAI) documents seen by The Irish Times, after they were sent in error to the members of the media, the Government has sought the security on the advice of the Chief State Solicitors Office (CSSO).

The CSSO is concerned that the public funding currently being advanced in order to get the scheme under way could be lost if the scheme does not proceed and the IRFU decides to sell the highly valuable site on which the present stadium stands. The IRFU is, in turn, seeking an indemnity for half of the €20 million from the FAI. Both organisations are also being required to provide an additional €500,000 in bridging finance so as to cover the day-to-day operating costs of the development as a result of the funding delay.

In the document, which is the text of FAI chief executive John Delaney’s address to tomorrow’s meeting of the association’s national council, it is stated that there have been “lengthy and protracted discussions between the Department and the CSSO on one side and Arthur Cox Solicitors on behalf of the IRFU and FAI”.

Mr Delaney says in his address that “some progress has been made on the issue”, but that “difficulties continue to exist”. He says that the present position is that the charge would be applied by the Government in the event that the redevelopment project does not go ahead, the stadium is sold, and all of the net proceeds from such a sale are not subsequently used by the IRFU in the construction of an alternative stadium.

Asked about the issue last night, Mr Delaney described the issue “as a paperwork issue,” which he said could be resolved “quite quickly”. He denied that the project was being delayed in any way by the difficulties and said the €1 million being advanced by the two sporting organisation would be recouped from the Government when the matter is resolved.

In relation to the €10 million indemnity being required of it by the IRFU, its partners in the scheme, he said: “I can’t see that we would be exposed to any liability. The chance of the risk crystalising is extremely remote.”

The dispute, nevertheless, comes after repeated claims in public by the FAI’s leadership that all aspects of the development were proceeding smoothly and to schedule.

The Lansdowne Road Stadium Redevelopment Company, which was established by the two associations as a joint venture to oversee the construction and operation of the new €292 million stadium, recently appointed a project management team and it was intended that an application for planning permission would be submitted by the end of this year.

A little over a year was then being allowed for the planning process to run its course after which construction would begin and it was hoped that the new stadium would be opened during 2009.

Mr Delaney insists that the current difficulties with the Government, which is due to meet around two-thirds of the total costs, has not affected this schedule. However, it is clear that the two associations could not pay the day-to-day costs of the development for any prolonged period of time during which there was continuing uncertainty regarding the provision and delivery of public funding.

The news, however, was not all bad for the FAI with the document containing his proposed speech also revealing that the association expects to generate €3.18 million from the forthcoming World Cup qualifier against France. Ends

Surely the site valued at 200m plus is security enough

Ireland’s 2007 Six Nations fixtures
Wednesday, 03 May 2006 5:49

Croke Park will host a rugby international for the first time on February 11, 2007

The 2007 Six Nations campaign fixtures have been released and Ireland’s first home match, in Croke Park, will be against France on 11 February.

Eddie O’Sullivan’s side open their campaign away to Wales at Cardiff’s Millennium Stadium on Sunday February 4.

Then comes the home tie with France followed by England at home on Saturday February 24 at 5.30pm.

Ireland finish their campaign with away trips against Scotland in Edinburgh on March10 and in Rome against Italy on Saint Patrick’s Day, March 17.

2007 SIX NATIONS FIXTURES

Sat Feb 3
Italy v France 13.30, Stadio Flaminio
England v Scotland 16.00, Twickenham

Sun Feb 4
Wales v Ireland 15.00, Millennium Stadium

Sat Feb 10
England v Italy 13.30, Twickenham
Scotland v Wales 15.30, Murrayfield

Sun Feb 11
Ireland v France 15.00 Croke Park, Dublin

17/18 Feb – Rest Weekend

Sat Feb 24
Scotland v Italy 15.00, Murrayfield
Ireland v England 17.30, Croke Park, Dublin
France v Wales 20.00, Stade de France

3/4 Mar – Rest Weekend

Sat Mar 10
Scotland v Ireland 13.30, Murrayfield
Italy v Wales 15.30, Stadio Flaminio

Sun Mar 11
England v France 15.00, Twickenham

Sat Mar 17
Italy v Ireland 13.30, Stadio Flaminio
France v Scotland 15.30, Stade de France
Wales v England 17.30, Millennium Stadium

Has the project cleared planning?

@niall murphy wrote:

I have no problem with Dublin people. Its just there exists an attitude that everywhere that isnt Dublin is equal to “down the country”!!

This is totally off topic so I shall stop now.

I won’t . I think we need to be very clear that once you step over the dividing line of county dublin , you are into a wilderness of inbreeding, violence, and bog . I mean de state of these muuk savages.

@GregF wrote:

Just heard on the news that Bohemians Football Club are to sell their ground in Phibsboro and move to middle class Castleknock where they’ll have a new stadium built.

Does anyone remember a football team called Shamrock Rovers who used to be champions and then they got involved in a deal like this

Thomond Park – What’s the story with your namesake in Limerick. Last I heard, they had problems securing sites which was in turn limiting their expansion plans.
Re Dalymount – I am not privy to the Bohs deal, but it sounds too good to be true. As far as I was aware, the FAI wanted Dalymount to be one of the key football gounds in the city, to be shared by Bohs and Shelbourne. Rovers new home at Tallaght being the other, to be shared by Rovers and St. Pats. Thus, Richmond Park at Inchicore and Shels Tolka Park were to be consigned to the same fate as Milltown. This move by Bohs throws a spanner in those particular plans I guess.
In relation to Bohs moving, I guess the only thing I can say is that at least they will only move when the new stadium at Castleknock is completed (unlike Rovers, who went nomadic the moment the ground shut). I personally would prefer to see Dalymount redeveloped properly…it is one of the few city center football grounds. On the flip side, it is Bohs’ ground and if they want to flog it and get a spanking new stadium with a large population base, then why not. Only thing is, I imagine that the planned 10k seat stadium will be relatively basic, have the atmosphere of a cow shed, and fail to attract a substantial following. I hate to say it, but league of Ireland clubs rarely attract attendances of over 5k.

From what I understand the locals in Kileely and the IRFU are about €50k a unit away from a deal which in the greater scheme of things is not a lot of money. The Munster Branch should sell the naming rights for the newly developed stadium as it would be worth a bundle given that Thomond always seems to feature at the business end of the Heineken cup which has a large audience accross four major markets.

I also agree with a redevelopment of Dalymount being preferable and this move surprises me as there have been many previous plans some good for this ground that allowed both a new ground and development. It looks like this site has been to the architects what the tribunals have been to the lawyers.