Dublin Fruit Market

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This topic contains 118 replies, has 38 voices, and was last updated by  rumpelstiltskin 3 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #707253

    Anonymous
    Participant

    August 1 2004: Dublin fruit market for redevelopment
    The Sunday Business Post

    “The area around the Dublin Fruit and Vegetable Market on St Michan’s Street in Smithfield is set for redevelopment following the decision by several traders operating in the market to relocate to a more accessible site on the north side of the city. The Dublin Markets Business Group, which represents many of the traders, has appointed a team to identify a 20-acre site close to the M50 and Dublin Airport to accommodate a 28,000-square-metre purpose-built facility. The team includes auctioneers Hamilton Osborne King, architects Traynor O’Toole, project managers 4 Front, and quantity surveyors Kerrigan Sheanon Newman.” End Quote

    I think this is one of the most interesting projects the City Centre has seen in years. It is a real opportunity to put in a major attraction between O’Connell St and Smithfield.

    If the future of the area was mirrored by the recent office development on Capel St I think the area is in trouble.

    Incidently the initial developer of the Corporation Fruit market went bust as the costs went out of control so construction inflation was a problem in the 19th Century as well!!!!!

    Any Thoughts?

  • #745119

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    Remember the scheme in The Sunday Times, a year or two back?

    http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2002/000279.htm

  • #745120

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Originally published by News International
    But the council insists it’s in the business of resuscitation, “reclaiming a part of the city that’s been dead and unknown,” according to Jim Barrett, city architect.

    http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2002/000279.htm

    I lived in the Old Distillery for a year and the phrase dead and unknown really stands up once you turn off Capel St. It is a pity because it is such a central location to have a void.

    Although similarly to Temple bar pre 1991 there are a lot of fine old buildings suitable for renovation.

    Any flagship project in this area is to be welcomed, as Temple Bar displayed a few flagship restorations can lead to some really good contemporary buildings following up.

    The exit of Fruit and Veg wholesalers to an edge city location is also to be welcomed as it will reduce HGV traffic and free up space for higher end uses 😀

    A closer look at the plans will be very interesting

  • #745121

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    Shane O’Toole wrote an interesting piece with pictures of a model. Unfortunetly News International deems that anyone physically outside of the UK + Ireland has to pay for access to their site. So I cannot grab the story or refresh my memory….

  • #745122

    urbanisto
    Participant

    From what I remember of the proposals there is to be an L-shaped 6 storey srtucture on two sides of a new square on the current site of the fish markets which will be demolished. The current Fruit and Veg markets will front onto the square. This building will be revamped to become a commercial markets along the lines of the Engilish Market in Cork. There are also plans to replace the Fyffes warehouse. I also understood that there were to be certain design criteria laid downa nd that a maximum height of 6 storeys was to be implemented with a number of higher focal point buildings allowed.

  • #745123

    Sue
    Participant

    Source: Sunday Times
    Issue Date: Sunday December 30, 2001
    Byline: John Burns

    MOLLY MALONE must be spinning in her grave: her old stomping ground, Dublin’s fish market, is to be demolished.

    In its place, Dublin corporation is planning to build a colonnaded square encompassing the nearby fruit-and-vegetable market, which is to be refurbished.

    Designed by Donnelly Turpin and MBM, a Barcelona firm, the square will be pedestrianised and will cover an area the size of Mountjoy Square, also on the city’s northside.

    The development, due to be unveiled in February, is a dramatic and ambitious scheme, on a par with the overhaul of Smithfield and Temple Bar.

    Occupying a 6,000sqmetre site behind the Four Courts, the fruit-and-veg market is one of Dublin’s least known architectural treasures. It first opened for business in December 1892.

    The adjacent fish market dates from five years later but is a much less important structure. Many fishmongers have already deserted it and much of the unlisted building is used as a car park.

    The fate of the remaining fishmongers has yet to be decided. Several are refusing to leave their stalls and want compensation from the corporation, which is confident of reaching an agreement with them about alternative accommodation soon.

    Fishmongering has declined since Molly Malone’s day, with a drop in the catch, co-operatives selling directly to shops and higher prices.

    Tommy O’Callaghan, chairman of the Dublin Fish Market Wholesalers’ Association, says he hopes the new market will include the fish traders.

    The traders, with Bord Iascaigh Mhara, the sea fisheries agency, had submitted a plan to the corporation that would include a fish market, restaurants, shops and an aquarium in the new development.

    “Every capital city in the world has a fish market. The traders want to stay in this area. This market is very traditional and is a part of old Dublin,” said O’Callaghan.

    The corporation, which owns the fish market, has refused to spend Pounds 1m refurbishing it and decided instead to demolish the now-dilapidated structure. Corporation chiefs argue that Luas, the light rail scheme, would also disrupt the operation of the market.

    Jim Barrett, the city architect, said: “Most of the big operators are already moving out of the market anyway.

    “It is a very important quarter and this is an attractive scheme. We want to keep a market here while getting rid of the huge articulated lorries that come into the area. Many residents have complained about refigerated lorries humming through the night.”

    Many stalls, some of which have been run by families for up to five generations, will have to be abandoned to make room for the refurbishment.

    Derek Leonard, whose great-grandmother was one of the first to set up a stall in 1892, said: “It’s the end of an era.”



    Headline: A market square deal;Architecture
    Source: Sunday Times
    Issue Date: Sunday December 08, 2002
    Byline: Shane O’Toole

    Far from being the end of Molly Malone’s old stomping ground, Dublin council’s plans offer a new lease of life for the markets area, reclaiming it for the public, says Shane O’Toole

    Some of Dublin city council’s critics claim that its new plan for the north inner-city markets area will finish off Molly Malone, the fishmonger, once and for all. But the council insists it’s in the business of resuscitation, “reclaiming a part of the city that’s been dead and unknown,” according to Jim Barrett, city architect.

    True, the “markets area framework plan”, currently on public display, proposes the demolition of the dilapidated wholesale fish market, located between Capel Street and the Four Courts, to create a new market square – the one Dublin never had – but you’d have to be blinded by nostalgia or prejudice not to lick your lips at the stylish retail fish hall that will be the rejuvenated market’s shop window to the city.

    It’s not as if the fishmongers haven’t moved before. An earlier fish market stood on the site of the elegant fruit and vegetable market, which replaced scattered street markets when it was executed in 1889-92 by the city engineer Spencer Harty to the 1884 designs of Paul Merrill.

    The sale of fish, meat and vegetables has been carried on within this district since medieval times, when St Mary’s Abbey held fairs on the green, an area now occupied by Green Street courthouse. Later there were markets around Green Street and St Mary’s Lane.

    Dublin is lucky to have retained its central food markets, in contrast to London and Paris, where the loss of the old Covent Garden and Les Halles are still lamented. These days, with the markets long in decline, the business is mostly wholesale. Surrounding buildings are used primarily as warehouses.

    The supermarket chains have developed their own distribution systems and no longer depend on centralised markets. Urban congestion and the need for distribution centres with direct access to national routes will eventually drive the remainder of the distribution end of the business out of town.

    If the area’s future could lie in the combination of local wholesale business with an all-day retail market, where the public could shop and eat, then a radical change of use that would weaken Dubliners’ sense of identity of their city might be avoided.

    The issue has been forced by the imminent arrival of Luas, the light rail system through the heart of the markets area. A framework is needed to steer the inevitable planning applications for office developments to replace underused warehouses.

    The council turned to David Mackay, one of the “three wise men” – the others are Sir Richard MacCormac andProfessor John Worthington – who since early last year have been advising the city manager on Dublin’s development explosion. The panel was inspired by the Barcelona authority, which operates a similar scheme.

    Mackay has lived in Barcelona since 1958. Through the pioneering work of his firm, MBM, in the reconstruction of Barcelona’s public spaces in the late 1970s, he became a world leader in recovering the architect’s role in the design of cities.

    Throughout the 1990s, Mackay had a profound influence on Dublin’s re-emergence as a European city of architectural note. He was a member of the competition juries for Temple Bar and Smithfield, the developments that placed contemporary Irish urban design on the international map.

    The Dublin architecture firm Donnelly Turpin and Roger Zogolovitch of AZ Urban Studio, a London-based consultancy specialising in urban regeneration, have been working with MBM since April 2001 to develop the plan for the markets area. Mark Turpin says what impresses him most is Mackay’s insistence on a strategy that is flexible enough to absorb the life of the city.

    “He says we must absolutely resist the temptation to descend into architecture,” says Turpin. Instead, what they have come up with a series of urban design principles, facade alignments and building heights. Only the appearance of the square is fixed.

    The framework’s big move – the radical idea to carve out the market square Dublin never had – emerged at a meeting in Barcelona between Mackay, his partner Oriol Bohigas and their colleague, Francesc Gual. The image they had in mind was Cracow, Poland, where the arcaded cloth hall stands in the middle of the medieval market square.

    At about 130 metres in each direction, the space will be divided in two by the free-standing fruit and vegetable market: to the west, on the site of the fish market, there will be a broad parade; to the east, where the arcaded side of the square deflects to follow the boundary of the old abbey, the form will be that of a tapering promenade. “We had the building, but not the square,” says Paraic Fallon, the city council’s senior planner. “Now we’ll have a new civic space, with the fruit and vegetable market as a focus.”

    About 80% of the building will be given over to food retailing. Only its north and west facades are elaborately detailed in terracotta panels and cut stone. New market workshops will screen the blank east facade and a glassy fish market hall will advertise the markets to passers-by.

    The fish hall will be serviced from below, and 500 parking spaces will be provided on two levels beneath the square. The six-storey buildings surrounding the square will supply the area’s defining landmark, but there will also be substantial four-storey developments to the north and east, with 550 new dwellings doubling the area’s population of 1,200.

    Three-quarters of the land needed for the redevelopment is in private ownership. Planning permission has recently been granted to Begley Brothers, the fruit importers, to kick-start the plan by building the middle third of the east side of Market Square.

    Barrett likens the framework to what he calls the “Merrion Square phenomenon”: development is unlikely to happen quickly, as opportunities will be parcelled out into four units here and six units there. “It will creep up on us,” he says. “We’ll end up with kinks and individuality, but within an overall order.

    The Markets Area Draft Framework Plan is on display at the Community Resource Centre, North King Street, Monday-Friday 10am-4pm until December 23 http://www.dublincity.ie/planning/city markets/pics titles.htm


  • #745124

    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’d like to see some images but I think it sounds well thought out, the Fruit markets are a real hidden treasure and if the fish markets are not listed I can’t see a problem with it.

    It must be a real objective to put a quantum of high value added land use other than legal in to the area. Something that will attract large numbers in the evenings from beyond the immediate Smithfield/ Capel St area.

    Does anyone have any montages?

  • #745125

    Harry
    Participant

    There is some information here.

    http://www.reflectingcity.com/0205b.htm

    It is a bit old now, but the idea has been around for a while.

  • #745126

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Harry,

    I had forgotton that site probably because the images are so large that it tkes for ever for the page to open, but they are very sharp once open.

    It looks interesting particularly the idea of a Square, it is good to see investment going into this area. Particularly when the architectural quality is high.

  • #745127

    d_d_dallas
    Participant

    image:

  • #745128

    urbanisto
    Participant

    The Times reports that the old Fish Markets will be demolished from today. Should take 6 weeks. The demolision means that the long awaited rejuvenation project for this area commences.

  • #745129

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    The figure that grabs me by the Short n Curlies is that 500 space underground/multi storey Car Park.
    Now perhaps because I have misplaced my Pince-Nez but I cannot seem to find any mention of a Public transport quotient in this magnificent Grande-Vision for Nord-Ouest Dublin City…
    Perhaps if the developers were to surrender ( 😮 ) 50 Car Spaces in favour of a small enclosed Bus Terminal or Interchange it might be interpreted as a Socially Beneficial gesture..??
    Yet again it appears that Dublin City Council stands back and refuses to raise as much as an “Ahem!!” whilst scribblin the word BUS on the jotter in front of them….
    Presently the area is like something from the “Living Dead” especially come evening time and the Luas has failed rather spectularly to inject a frisson of life into it.
    Given that Transport 21 rather incredibly ignores Bus Travel as a viable adjunct to City Living perhaps Dublin Bus itself might get together with the Developers to see if there is a mutually beneficial package which could be assembled…?
    It`s all very well getting rid of the Articulated Trucks,but what`s the benefit of replacing them with several hundred cars…even if they will be off-street and safe from the rioters…… 🙁

  • #745130

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Totally agree Alek

    given the presence of Luas a shift of de 39 stable of buses to this location would have been most welcome.

  • #745131

    kefu
    Participant

    The wrecking crew have been brought in and the Fish Markets are gone. The whole site has been cordoned off so looks like significant progress on this redevelopment at last.
    I think it’s a hugely important project and hopefully it will help widen the city towards the Four Courts and Smithfield.

  • #745132

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    Totally agree Kefu….I believe this site and it`s environs has far greater capability to be a socially diverse and lively public area than the entire Spencer Dock programme ever will be.

    Whats far more worrying however is the continuing refusal of the Civic Authorities to move a little in that all-inclusive direction.
    One meaningful way of achieving this would be to make Public Transport Area Access ridiculously easy and cheap whilst making private motoring access as bloody expensive and slow as possible.
    So far it seems as if its a “more-of-the-same” proposal with plenty of gated communes and underground “Secure” parking.
    We`re still not getting it…………;)

  • #745133

    kefu
    Participant

    What’s interesting too, in light of the decision to move the Abbey up to the IFSC, is that this site was never even mentioned as a possiblity. I think it would have been a far superior location.

  • #745134

    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree it would have had at least some contextual relationship to many of the plays at the Abbey

  • #745135

    notjim
    Participant

    From the post last Sunday:

    Sunday Business Post 16 September
    Bidder to be chosen to develop fish market site
    16 September 2007 By Neil Callanan
    The redevelopment of a former wholesale fish-market site in Dublin 7 has moved a step closer.

    Dublin City Council is expected to choose a preferred bidder to develop the fish market site by the end of the month.

    The site is part of a planned €400 million rejuvenation of Dublin’s Markets area, which is between Henry Street and Smithfield in the north-west inner city. The Victorian fish market on the site has already been demolished.

    The site is expected to be redeveloped as a commercial and residential complex, up to six storeys in height. Underground car parking will also be developed.

    The council decided to demolish the fish market because it was underutilised and there was an opportunity to provide retail, restaurant, residential and cultural use on the site.

    It will also provide an opportunity to build new office accommodation for the legal sector based around the Four Courts.

    The new buildings will overlook the fruit and vegetable market, which is one of the most recognisable buildings in Dublin.

    Six groups were originally invited to take part in the competitive process for the fish market site after a public notice last December seeking expressions of interest in the redevelopment.

    Proceeds from the sale of the site will go towards the cost of a new civic square surrounding the fruit and vegetable market, a community facility and an underground car park.

    The council wants to develop the square because it claims the distance between O’Connell Street and Smithfield, at 1.25 kilometres, is too far to create a natural connection between the two.

  • #745136

    jdivision
    Participant

    It’s between two parties, one of which is the Kelly family presumably acting with partners.

  • #745137

    manifesta
    Participant

    Here’s one for the Statistically Improbable Phrases detector: @Sunday Times wrote:

    stylish retail fish hall

    It will be interesting to see what happens with the redevelopment of this area. The fruit & veg markets are architecturally gorgeous.

    I love the alternating patterns of brickwork. . . satisfies both the symmetrical side of my brain and the asymmetrical:

    The ornamental embellishments — fruits, fish, and vegetables — at the base of each of the smaller arches are a great detail. No matter what happens to the interior or to the adjacent sites (er. . .’stylish retail fish hall’?), a bit of hidden history remains in the architecture itself. Shame, though, about the upkeep or lack thereof. The graffiti’s made a mess of it.

    While the loss of the adjacent fish market marks the end of an era, it seems inevitable. When the storied Fulton Fish Market (immortalized in Joseph Mitchell’s excellent collection of essays Up in the Old Hotel) was finally booted out of lower Manhattan in 2005, the city gained an opportunity for development but lost a bit of its history. I wonder what will happen over time not just to the people who are moved out of the area but also to the stories — or can we ever hope for anything more than one-liner laments over Molly Malone?

  • #745138

    jdivision
    Participant

    The fish market is already gone manifesta afaik. The traders have moved out past the M50 to Ballycoolin I think.

  • #745139

    notjim
    Participant

    @notjim wrote:

    Proceeds from the sale of the site will go towards the cost of a new civic square surrounding the fruit and vegetable market, a community facility and an underground car park..

    So this civic square: wasn’t the original plan for an outdoor market on the fish market site, which I thought was a fantastic idea, is that the same as a civic square or has the plan changed?

  • #745140

    urbanisto
    Participant

    No the old Fish Markets will be developed to enclose a square that will have the Fruit and Veg markets as a centrepiece. The ironwork from the Fish market was salvages to create a new addition on to the southern part of the F&V. The square probably will have some outdoor markets. The images look great and I think can still be found on the DCC website.

  • #745141

    Anonymous

    have a look at update technologies .ie webpage , go to projects – commercial – smithfield
    project by B O Halloran architects for Church st

  • #745142

    GrahamH
    Participant

    The doorcases either side of the main entrance seem almost identical to those of the underside of the Loop Line bridge spanning Westland Row. Same architect I wonder?

  • #745143

    TLM
    Participant

    According to the IT Patrick Guilbaud may be involved in a cookery school in the new scheme and Fallon & Byrne may anchor the development – good news to hear high profile restrauneurs are showing an interest in being involved!

  • #745144

    fergalr
    Participant

    When are we getting this little square? It looks like a very nice proposal but one that I would’ve imagined should be done by now.

  • #745145

    TLM
    Participant

    Here’s the full text…. The developer was announced yesterday so hopefully things will get moving shortly.

    Restaurateur Patrick Guilbaud and the team behind food -emporium and restaurant Fallon & Byrne are understood to be in discussions to be potential tenants for the Victorian Fruit and Vegetable Market in Dublin’s north inner city when it is redeveloped.

    The developer chosen by Dublin City Council to transform the wholesale market located between the Four Courts and Capel Street, just to the north of the river Liffey, into a new retail development was announced yesterday, almost three years after the plans to redevelop the market were first published by former city manager, John Fitzgerald.

    The Markets Regeneration Consortium is the council’s preferred bidder and hopes to shortly sign contracts. The consortium is 50 per cent owned by Blackrock International Land, the property arm of Fyffes, 25 per cent by car dealer turned developer, Joe Linders and the remaining 25 per cent by developer Paddy Kelly.

    It is understood that the fruit and vegetable market will remain as a market hall, with most of the new business devoted to retail and a smaller wholesale offering.

    A new culinary school is also planned, which will possibly have involvement from Patrick Guilbaud, while Fallon & Byrne have been identified as possible anchor tenants for the market.

    Next door on the old fish market site there will be apartments and an open square, with some office and retail space. An underground car park with about 300 spaces is also planned for the area.

    Approximately 34 predominantly wholesale traders selling fruit, vegetables and flowers are currently tenants of the council in the market.

    A spokesman for the Dublin Market Traders’ Association, which represents the majority of the traders, said last night that neither the consortium nor the council had made any approach to them in relation to their future in the market.

    The majority of traders have been renting pitches from the council for decades, with businesses passed down through some families for more than 100 years.

    © 2008 The Irish Times

  • #745146

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Its incredible that this project has taken so long to come to fruition (pardon the pun). Even despite this story we are only at preferred tender stage…not tender agreed. There is still further design (and no doubt substantial changes to the original plan), planning, appeals (likely), construction and then no doubt we’ll have a CHQ-like saga of finding tenants.

    Zzzzzzz Wake me up when we’re there

  • #745147

    missarchi
    Participant

    i think we will get there!

  • #745148

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    Oh we `ll get there all right,just as soon as that 300 underground car park spaces figure can be improved upon……any mention of a non-Luas Public Transport quotient…? :confused: :confused: 😮

  • #745149

    jdivision
    Participant

    Has anybody seen the images of the proposed scheme yet. Oh dear. Dodgy Marbella here we come.

  • #745150

    notjim
    Participant
  • #745151

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    I have just received the images – will post before 4pm. It’s not great to be honest.

  • #745152

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster
  • #745153

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Ho Ho! I can see clouds of steam from the ears of various contributors already rising…

    HKR Heaven!!!

  • #745154

    manifesta
    Participant

    I don’t know, but for some reason I’m craving waffles.

  • #745155

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Or an enormous tub of melted chocolate to pour over it all! a minute on the lips…..

  • #745156

    Anonymous
    Participant

    whats the opposite of wow ?

  • #745157

    jdivision
    Participant

    blah? It reminds me of those redbrick apartment buildings in Milltown, Dundrum etc where apartments take forever to sell because they’re so old. This is not retro cool, it’s Carroll’s Smithfield Lofts scheme gone wrong.

  • #745158

    notjim
    Participant

    what was the film where someone had a W tattooed on each bum-cheek so that when they bent over it spelled WoW: in that context the opposite of wow is “o”.

  • #745159

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jdivision wrote:

    blah? It reminds me of those redbrick apartment buildings in Milltown, Dundrum etc where apartments take forever to sell because they’re so old. This is not retro cool, it’s Carroll’s Smithfield Lofts scheme gone wrong.

    I’d tend to agree … perhaps i’m a bit quick to judge based on that montage but given that its essentially the same brick wallpaper twisted at will, i don’t know if i need to see any more.

  • #745160

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @notjim wrote:

    what was the film where someone had a W tattooed on each bum-cheek so that when they bent over it spelled WoW: in that context the opposite of wow is “o”.

    😀

  • #745161

    LOB
    Participant

    @peter FitzPatrick wrote:

    whats the opposite of wow ?

    mom!

  • #745162

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    as had been pointed out to me by email – the brick is Aras Ui Dhalaigh for the 21st century.

  • #745163

    johnglas
    Participant

    Unfortunately , the Fruit Market building shows up just how dire the new stuff is. The blurb descibes it as ‘world class’ – whose world? what class?

  • #745164

    GrahamH
    Participant

    I’m surpised nobody’s mentioned the ‘signature’ building at Mayor Square yet.


    © The Irish Times

    Have to say I kinda like its expressive, sharp forms. The building in the distance looks like it has a digital audio meter on the roof 🙂

    However so much of the same design across the board I suspect will either be dramatically effective or extremely tiresome. The same may also contribute to an atmosphere of a ‘designed’ 1980’s UK town centre regeneration, which is my greatest concern.

    Still – we’re getting too much of a multi-faceted, softly softly approach of jumbling various buildings of late in major redevelopments. At least this has the guts to work with a singular concept in mind. Whether this concept is unduly monotonous, I haven’t quite decided. What I have decided is that ‘world class’ is not a term that immediately springs to mind.

    The choice of brick is going to be crucial.

  • #745165

    gunter
    Participant

    The person I feel sorry for here is whoever the guy was in DCC that came up with this idea in the first place, he must be feeling sick right now.

    The whole ‘Fruit Market’ project was a really great idea that DCC, to their credit, have followed through on when it can’t have been easy to deal with all the vested interests. Potentially the ‘Fruit Market’ scheme could be as important to the north inner city as Temple Bar is to the south inner city, and, (as has been said before by Frank McDonald, I think), as a link to the under performing Smithfield area, it could be the crucial factor that makes everything else click.

    There is no way that this architecture does any justice to any of the these aspirations. If this was designed by three different architectural practices, why does it all look the same?

    Why could something of this scale not have been broken down into smaller development parcels to generate some diversity of design approach under an umbrella of a single masterplan.

    In the HKR planning submission for the Motor Tax Office scheme next door, they showed a contextual drawing of the ‘Fruit Market’ scheme (with the roof off the market building) that looked genuinely interesting. The rigid geometry and the dodgy colonnades of the preliminary scheme were gone and the new scheme (below) looked almost relaxed and at the same time vibrant.

    Some of that is just the difference between the graphics of an artist’s impression and the harsh reality of a photo-montage, but mostly it’s the quality of the design.

    Either the design of the elevations changed, or else, the artist doing the line drawing couldn’t bring himself to draw all those repeating squares.

    We’ve waited all these years for a decent new urban space in the centre of Dublin, I’d sooner they took another year and got it right, then put up with this.

  • #745166

    notjim
    Participant

    You see I must be remembering this wrong but I thought the big clever thing for this square was that it was going to be designed in the old fashioned Georgian Sq/Grotmarket way: the council would establish a parapet line, a building line and so on and then individual lots would be sold off to individual developer to build what they wanted within that. Surely that would be better, more fun, more Market Squarish?

    PS – that building on Mayor Sq is a nightmare, I hate it.

  • #745167

    johnglas
    Participant

    The main problem with the Mayor Square bldg is that it cuts off the ‘plebs’ to the north from getting any access through it to the middle-class nirvana to the south. Why did DCC allow it? Notjim: I agree with what you’ve said: DCC should set out a detailed masterplan and individual (but largish) plots should invite design submissions. Three architects, one design; sounds like a supermarket cartel.

  • #745168

    ctesiphon
    Participant

    @gunter wrote:

    There is no way that this architecture does any justice to any of the these aspirations. If this was designed by three different architectural practices, why does it all look the same?

    My guess is that Gehl Architects were brought in for the ground plan/movement/site analysis stuff, HKR for the ‘local knowledge’ aspect and Make for the ‘high profile name’ bit (is DCC turning into DDDA in allowing itself be seduced by starchitect factor?). Which doesn’t really answer your question.

    I rather liked the previous proposal/visuals- was it Donnelly Turpin or someone like that? Floating around since ’03/’04. It had coherence (if a little flawed- the square was closed to the south, for example); this has monotony.

    A gestation period like this says ‘This is the best we can get’. Saddening.

  • #745169

    Devin
    Participant

    Is it just me or has the size of the public space to the west of the square been reduced in the latest proposal compared with the earlier one?

    The idea of the Victorian market building being situated in the middle of a square has definitely been eroded somewhat in the latest proposal by new buildings.

    Both schemes:

  • #745170

    ctesiphon
    Participant

    You might be right, but it seems that the overall layout has changed a bit too- there’s another square to the north now that wasn’t there before. Perhaps the site was added to in the interim? All in all, it’s less formal in appearance in the new incarnation, but I thought the previous square had a nice simplicity to it, unlike the 3D version of the London 2012 logo that’s proposed now. Ooh! Funkayyyyy!!!

  • #745171

    johnglas
    Participant

    Why is it that the architects were unable to propose a development involving brick and stone, voids and solids, arcades and arches, streets and piazze – in other words, a contemporary and complementary take on the classical rennaissance themes of the Fruit Market? Why is it that the best they can come up with is a quirky modernist pastiche to a tired old formula (shoeboxes but not quite)? Can nobody do inventive townscape respecting the ‘genius loci’?

  • #745172

    gunter
    Participant

    [HTML]

    Devin wrote:
    The idea of the Victorian market building being situated in the middle of a square has definitely been eroded somewhat in the latest proposal by new buildings.[/HTML]

    I agree with you there Devin.

    Whatever about the architectural quality of the first plan, and you’d have to worry about a square that conforms so closely to the johnglas ideal, at least you would have known that you were in a ‘square’. Furthermore, in the original scheme, the existing markets building was, quite rightly, the focus of the square. I’m not too sure that those seemingly simple objectives are achieved so well in the new scheme.

    On the other side of the equation, I quite like the less formal arrangement, simply because most great squares that I can think of, the ones that work really well as great urban spaces, are nearly always the ones that are less obviously planned. (exceptions : St. Marks Sq. Piazza Navona, anything baroque from Italy).

    A surprising number of the great European squares are semi-accidental in that they came about after fires destroyed existing city blocks. The great square at Nurnberg, where they hold the christmas markets now, was apparently only created after the citizens of the city burned down the original Jewish quarter (which shows how far back those particular tendencies go), and the huge square at Erfurt was only created in the early 19th century, when a fire destroyed the blocks separating two smaller medieval squares.

    Quite a lot of the great formal squares of northern Europen are actually only great architecturally, they’re not great urban spaces, if you you include ‘hubs of activity’ in the criteria. You’d find more life in the courtyard of a nursing home than you’ll find in Robert Adam’s Charlott Square, and Place des Vosges, for all it’s sublime beauty, isn’t all that much livlier. The square in front of the Neu Residenz in Wurzburg is so vast and so formal (on three sides) and so dead, that it can only be used as a giant surface car park.

    O.K. Fruit Market Square was never going to be in that league, but it is still, potentially, an important urban space and, as such, it still has to decide what it’s trying to be. Is it trying to be a formal square, as originally envisaged, or a fluid organic space?

    If the answer now is the latter, then straight away you’re into a dilemma, how do you design an undesigned space? Do you just contrive it crooked and to hell with issues of logic? Do you try and pick up clues from the surrounding urban patterns and then contrive it, but with answers (Libeskind style) if anyone asks why bits are slanty? Do you divide the development up into parcels and let the contrived result be a ‘Making a Modern Square’ by Group 91 – 08? This would get my vote, if I had one.

    Whatever way you go about creating a new fluid informal space, what you don’t do, surely, is go around all the architecture that you’ve carefully contrived not to be formal, and stamp it all with the heaviest square pattern template you can find.

  • #745173

    johnglas
    Participant

    gunter: I agree with you completely; I was not advocating the ‘creation’ of a planned series of ‘squares’ (or spaces) – as a former planner, I know how difficult that is to design and execute. But the FM bldg must be the centrepiece of the whole project, not just an incidental (or even a ‘nuisance’ for some great planned sceme). I was advocating retaining the ‘spirit’ of the place – difficult i know, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try. So what if you design buildings and spaces deriving from the neo-renaissance of the FM; we need architects and designers with the balls to resist howls of ‘pastiche’ from the modernist lobby. You don’t have to ape old styles, just draw your inspiration from them.
    An example: one of the best (and most actively used) spaces in Glasgow is the area (really an elongated triangle) in front of the Concert Hall (an awful neo-1950s lump), with a long prospect down Buchanan street (Grafton St eat your heart out!). It was not ‘planned’ to be a happening space – it just is. And it links old posh Glasgow (Sauchiehall St) with the new trendy (Buchanan St). So the statue of our esteemed late leader gets a few traffic cones and loses its specs – that’s life!

  • #745174

    gunter
    Participant

    johnglas, That fine, it’s just you worry me, that’s all I’m saying.

    That space in front of the concert hall at the elbow of Suciehall st and Buchanin works as a space, surely, because the steps to the shopping centre function like an outdoor theater and the footfalls are huge, again because of the shopping centre.

    If you can guarantee a constant supply of people and throw in a few steps you can probably make any urban space work.

    The Fruit Market, like Smithfield, is going to have to face the challenge that, there isn’t really any reason to be there, unless they can make the spaces themselves, and the uses that are accommodated around it, attractive enough.

    I just don’t think the architecture is right yet. I know we’re only judging it from one render (sorry photo-montage) but to me it’s just a coat of white paint away from being a dodgy hotel complex on the Costa Brava.

  • #745175

    johnglas
    Participant

    gunter: no need to be worried; I’m quite harmless really (so I’m told). Take your points about footfall and the current design. I still think the FM developed as a mid-end retail, food, pub area (shock, horror) could create such a footfall. Coincidentally, look at the Fruit Market in Glasgow, Designated as a high-end shopping area it was a flop, but now exclusively a noshing and boozing area it works very well (and is full) – the old Fruitmarket Gallery next door is a useful space (the play Black Watch was performed there) and this is adjacent to the City Hall (a refurbished concert venue). Synergy, dear boy, synergy – events, dear boy, events!

  • #745176

    Maud
    Participant

    Maybe I’m architecturally illiterate or something but the first scheme looks much better to me than the latest. The latest one looks a bit gimmicky, it jars with the fruit market buildings, I think simply because the proposed buildings are close to (distance-wise) the modest 19th century ones. It looks a bit claustrophobic. A little children’s park in front of the market would have been lovely, and very civic! Then the new buildings wouldn’t look like they are about to topple over onto the market buildings. Oh well, I know space is always an issue with these developments!
    It’s so true, as someone pointed out, that the 19th century buildings really show up the blandness of the proposed ones.

  • #745177

    cgcsb
    Participant

    has construction started yet? if so, there certainly isn’t any visual indications of it

  • #745178

    jdivision
    Participant

    They haven’t even gone for planning yet. give them a chance

  • #745179

    archipimp
    Participant

    much prefer the first proposal myself, more solid looking like a european style piazza on a more human scale. I could imagine it being lined with cafes while the second feels more like a gimiky shopping centre that will be torn down in ten years.
    Also thats not a new square to the north ctesiphon just not part of the development.

  • #745180

    GregF
    Participant

    Will be good to see this neglected area of the city redeveloped, and then there’ll be the massive Arnott’s redevelopment further up the street. More additions to the city. Any move on the Moore Street Mall debacle? It’s dragged on for to long.

  • #745181

    ctesiphon
    Participant

    @archipimp wrote:

    Also thats not a new square to the north ctesiphon just not part of the development.

    I wondered about that after I posted, because there’s the footprint of a building on the site in that image above. Thanks for the clarification.

  • #745182

    cgcsb
    Participant

    Is this badly needed project going ahead or is it chopped due to the resession? does anyone have any info?

  • #745183

    erj10
    Participant

    Would anyone have any idea who carved the sculptures on the label stops of this building? I am doing a project on this building and have not come up with any concrete attribution yet.

    There also seems to be no original plans/drawings/elevations by the original architect Spencer Harty… I would LOVE for someone to tell me otherwise!!

  • #745184

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Have you tried Christine Casey’s Buildings of Dublin? I’ll look tomorrow. Also try the Irish Architectural Archive. They might have plans. Or the City Archive in Pearse Street.

  • #745185

    urbanisto
    Participant

    According to Christine Casey:

    “Delightful, freely modeled terracotta label stops of fish, fruit and vegetables supplied by Henry Dennis of Ruabon, though the template has been attributed to CW Harrison. The figures of Justice and Fair Trade over the Mary’s Lane entrance are by Harrison”

    A fabulous book! God bless you Christine.

  • #745186

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    Is that whole market square scheme now dead with the economy?

  • #745187

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Its mentioned in the new City Development Plan. I think it needs to figure more strongly though. Its a shame to see the Markets building degrading already.

  • #745188

    erj10
    Participant

    Thanks a million StephenC. I had seen that entry, but there are no sources for her claims so I am reluctant to rely on it completely. As Harrison’s was the biggest sculptural firm at the time in Dublin as well as the fact that they definitely carved the Justice and Peace figures would lead me to think that the label stops have a high likelihood of being by them. I would just love some primary evidence of the fact! There is nothing in the IAA or in Pearse Street which is a pity.

    On the whole issue of the project moving forwards… I was in touch with someone in the planning department who said he’d be very surprised if this did not happen in the next five years.

  • #745189

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Some new for this part of the city from today’s Irish Times

    Dublin business group seeks to revive rejuvenation plans for ‘city markets’

    The Dublin City Business Association yesterday published the Capel Street and City Markets report which focuses on the Capel Street and markets area as two distinct but linked districts.

    OLIVIA KELLY

    PLANS TO redevelop Dublin city’s Victorian fruit and vegetable markets and surrounding area that collapsed two years ago are being revived by the Dublin City Business Association (DCBA).

    Dublin City Council in 2005 published the Markets Framework Plan, a €425 million urban regeneration scheme for the north inner city area surrounding the Victorian Fruit and Vegetable Market, the former fish market and the Daisy Market.

    Under the plan, the wholesale fruit market was to be converted into a high-end retail food market, retaining some wholesalers and introducing restaurants. The fish market site would be turned into a civic square surrounded by shops, offices and apartments, and the Daisy Market would be developed as a three-storey sports, leisure and community centre.

    In late 2007 a consortium led by Paddy Kelly, one of the principal developers involved in the regeneration of nearby Smithfield, was selected by the council as the preferred bidder for the regeneration project. Restaurateur Patrick Guilbaud and the Exchequer Street restaurant, wine bar and high-end grocers Fallon Byrne were identified as potential anchor tenants for the scheme.

    However, agreements were never signed and Mr Kelly’s property empire subsequently collapsed. Earlier this year, the council sought to turn part of the site, the Daisy Market, into a waste depot and recycling facility but was blocked by councillors.

    DCBA yesterday published the Capel Street and City Markets report, which it said is a strategy to rejuvenate the area as a “distinctive shopping environment” and create a “gastronomic centre for the city” without relying on property developers.

    The plan focuses on Capel Street and the markets area as two distinct but linked districts. The report notes that the council has had several plans for the regeneration of these areas since the 1990s, but while nearby areas such as Henry Street have improved dramatically over the last two decades Capel Street and the markets have remained substantially run-down.

    The centrepiece of the area, the fruit and vegetable market should be rebranded as “City Markets” and developed along the lines of the English Market in Cork with small businesses selling indigenous products. Unlike what the report describes as the council’s “rather grandiose plans” for the markets which are now “unachievable”, the markets should be developed gradually, with the small number of existing fruit and vegetable wholesalers encouraged to develop a retail element where practical.

    The council, which still owns the market should upgrade it so it would be suitable and attractive for other food retailers. They in time would attract associated businesses such as restaurants, cafes and cookery schools. Capel Street would then benefit from the increased pedestrian flow of shoppers from Henry Street towards the City Markets.

    Almost a quarter of the premises of Capel Street are vacant and others house “undesirable” businesses such as adult shops, or have shop fronts which are inappropriate to the architectural character of the street. The council should use its existing planning powers to eliminate these problems, the report said.

    Mary’s Lane, which links Capel Street to the markets should be pedestrianised, it continued, and a new Luas stop should be located behind the markets.

    DCBA chief executive Tom Coffey said the initial upgrade of the Victorian market would cost the council less than €1 million and would be a catalyst for the development of the area.

  • #745190

    kefu
    Participant

    Another Luas stop? There’s less than 400 yards between the existing ones. If people are too lazy to walk the 200 yards, then I’m not sure they need to be facilitated with another Luas stop to make the journey to Tallaght even more interminable.

  • #745191

    Smithfield Resi
    Participant

    I wonder what will replace the revenue garnered by DCC running the site of the demolished fish market as a surface car park within those 250 metresof a LUAS stop.

    “Extensive surface car parking to the front of developments, which detracts from the character of a centre and discourages pedestrians, should be avoided and parking standards should be in accordance with the relevant Development Plan standards.”

    “POLICY T2
    It is the policy of Dublin City Council to encourage modal change from private car use towardsincreased use of more sustainable forms of transport such as public transport, cycling, and walking, and by encouraging teleworking and carpooling and car-sharing.”

    “Restrictions on the use and cost of on street
    parking will be kept under review and changed,
    as necessary, in order to discourage commuter
    parking and to facilitate short term parking for
    shopping, business and leisure purposes”

  • #745192

    johnglas
    Participant

    Since when were ‘adult’ shops a problem? Too much like shopping for grown-ups (as opposed to the infantile notion of ‘retail therapy’)?

  • #745193

    Pot Noodle
    Participant

    Where is the Daisy Market :confused:

  • #745194

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Its a small site beside the Fruit & Veg market. Left and straight down as you approach the Market from Marys Lane

  • #745195

    Anonymous

    Whatever they do, keep them markets, Dublin has the best access to local grown food of all capital cities in Europe right? Make use of that..

  • #745196

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    So what’s the current status of this – is the Make scheme dead? Am assuming it is.

  • #745197

    urbanisto
    Participant

    God yeah….until the Second Coming of The Lord when it will be seated at the righthand of the City Fathers.

  • #745198

    urbanisto
    Participant

    An interesting event for anyone interested in this area of the city
    http://www.pivotdublin.com/blog/?p=1369

  • #745199

    mcdanish
    Participant

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0802/1224301719515.html
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1012/1224280878537.html

    Two recent articles suggesting something positive may be happening with this site have been disappointing.The articles suggested that November would see some opening to the public. I visited this area yesterday to see it remains an area of neglect. The area is heaviliy littered and would take some serious development for revival. Its a shame because the Victorian Market building holds so much potential. In a visit to Stockholm last year i visited a city market housed in a building of similar stature and was completely blown away by how fantastic it was. The place was packed with swedish artisan food producers and was very atmospheric with diners and shoppers.
    Sometimes I am amazed with what we didnt do during the boom and lament about what could have been achieved.To see a building like this stacked with pallets of fruit and veg is a terrible misuse of this building.A redevelopment of this building by DCC could kick start something for this area.Temple bar in the 70s was like this area and is proof that this area can be revived.
    I d love to know where the Irish Times got their information for the latest development as there is no mention on Dublin City Council website regarding any progress for this building.

  • #745200

    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Fruitmarket is a true gem; the €425m Kelly proposal is clearly dead. DCC are going to have to either fund this themselves on the cheap or do a JV if they can find someone with deep pockets to take a 25 year view.

    The food angle was nice when it could be afforded; looking at this in cold financial terms, the building is costing DCC money, the ideal solution is to offer the existing traders new pitches in the Fishmarket at a discounted rent and do turnover only license deals with restaurants and bars in the Fruit Market. The rates payable to the council would be huge; in contrast to the low income, low functionality it currently provides the city……. This area has onlt one catalyst in the 4 Courts, that is a day time only driver, it badly needs another…..

  • #745201

    FXR
    Participant

    The fruit and veg market is dying a death. There was a time when the only way to get a bank in the market was if you were left it in a will.
    http://photobucket.com/dublinfruitandveg

  • #745202

    urbanisto
    Participant

    The Market has been rebranded Mary’s Lane Market by Dublin City Council and is being promoted as “an authentic Victorian shopping experience”. They should put something up on their website…all I saw was an advert in the Civic Offices.

    The capital investment programme for Dublin announced by DCC today includes the refurbishment of the Market Hall despite the cuts elsewhere. It well worth it. I think with some clever collaborative thinking this area could really take off.

  • #745203

    Cathal Dunne
    Participant

    @StephenC wrote:

    The capital investment programme for Dublin announced by DCC today includes the refurbishment of the Market Hall despite the cuts elsewhere. It well worth it. I think with some clever collaborative thinking this area could really take off.

    I agree. I have to laugh at the fact that this thread is 7 years old and we’re still talking about doing this. It’s a development of undoubted benefit that should have been done ages ago. Considering all the other rubbish which was built during the boom it’s a crying shame that a worthwhile scheme like this was neglected.

    No more talking, just go ahead and do it should be DCC’s view.

  • #745204

    Anonymous
    Participant

    It is encouraging to see a flagship project such as this moving forward. This type of project would in my opinion give the national skills agency a perfect oppotunity to retrain a large number of unemployed construction workers previously building 16 to the acre generic units some value added conservation skills. The benefits would be multiple; reduced labour costs, potential EU grants, a strengthened service industry.

    If this gets done and occupied quickly I have no doubt as the market recovers the adjoining land holdings will look after themselves without any need for further state intervention. Well done DCC for showing some vision on your own doorstep.

  • #745205

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Following on from Dublin Civic Trust’s “Capel Street & The City Markets” study http://issuu.com/dctrust/docs/capel_street_and_the_city_markets_-_revised_2011 Dublin City Business Association have been fleshing out some of the issues that arise in returning the markets to economic activity and public use http://www.dcba.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/DUBLIN-CITY-MARKET.pdf

    As noted above this is a great project for the City to get its teeth into – realisable, cost effective and capable of injecting life into a currently underused area of the city centre. At my last visit in Feb, work has already begun on refurbishing the Market Hall http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie have a short blog post on their plans for the building.

    I have said it many times before however that the focus must also be out in the wider area to ensure that the Markets become an attractive destination for people. Some of architect James Kelly’s thoughts in the DCBA documents are relevant here. Borough Market in London is also a good reference point on how to successfully integrate market/food businesses around the market halls into a wider area/quarter/etc.

    Another blog site/Twitter feed worth following is http://dubcitybeta.wordpress.com/ – also an initiative of Dublin City Architects.

  • #745206

    kefu
    Participant

    The key difficulty for me is overcoming the fact that the markets have always been a very hidden part of Dublin. I know native Dubliners who would get lost in that entire area bounded by the quay, Capel Street, Church Street, and North King Street aside from the Four Courts.
    That to me is the conundrum. How do you open up an area that up to now has had little to nothing by way of attraction or ordinary business, and is in truth, a quarter that has long had an air of abandonment (and doesn’t feel particularly safe).
    For me, that would have to start with Mary Street Little, and if it could be given some of the new lease of life Capel Street has, it could be a great success.

  • #745207

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Yes, fully agreed. Some simple actions:
    Remove traffic from Mary Street Little and resurface to make its an attractive walking route. I think Fade Street shows what might be achievable in a cost effective manner.
    Add new street lighting – the same as Capel Street
    Add a few box planters
    Agree a colour scheme and facade treatments with the building owners along the street
    Add a post to the wayfinder unit directing to the market
    Dare I say it…do a bit of Marketing! and advertise the market, give it a makeover

    Its not rocket science

    A great little video doing the rounds yesterday on Twitter..even after all these years it chimes with what another Civic Trust has been suggesting http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/304

  • #745208

    Cathal Dunne
    Participant

    Is there any news re the development of the fruit market? It would be great to see this developed into something like Spitalfields markets in London or the English Market in Cork. It’s one thing we’re lacking – an attractive, properly-developed market area.

  • #745209

    urbanisto
    Participant

    You might read the previous posts!

  • #745210

    Cathal Dunne
    Participant

    @StephenC wrote:

    You might read the previous posts!

    Hi StephenC. You have linked to some very interesting things but they do smack of a lot of what constitutes planning in this city – lots of masterplans, computer graphics and ideas but very little in the way of implementation. I’m glad to hear that work began in February and I’d like to see pictures, videos of that happening a la the new Marlborough St. bridge – tangible evidence that something is happening. I’ll be in Town over the next couple of weeks so I’ll make a point of going over to have a gawk at what’s happening with my own eyes.

  • #745211

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Completely agreed Cathal. Just thought they were interesting links etc. And planning (or acting to be more specific) is subject to interminable delays in this city.

    I did mention a few posts back that €1m has been set aside for the Markets project and that work had started in Feb. I had a nosey in today (couldnt get inside as it closes at 3pm – that will have to change) and its creeping along. It is fair to say though that the building is a working space but cant imagine there is too great a fire under DCC on this matter.

  • #745212

    Cathal Dunne
    Participant

    @StephenC wrote:

    Completely agreed Cathal. Just thought they were interesting links etc. And planning (or acting to be more specific) is subject to interminable delays in this city.

    yes, they certainly are but I feel quite burned from all the hoopla surrounding DART underground and MN. All the YouTube videos, pdfs, websites and flashy computer graphics all served to distract from the dearth of actual commitment to actually develop these pieces of infrastructure. Like a lot of things in Ireland, there needs to be less talk, more action.

    I did mention a few posts back that €1m has been set aside for the Markets project and that work had started in Feb. I had a nosey in today (couldnt get inside as it closes at 3pm – that will have to change) and its creeping along. It is fair to say though that the building is a working space but cant imagine there is too great a fire under DCC on this matter.

    I had a look today as well! We could have been within metres of each other without knowing it! I was in Town buying a few bits and decided to disintermediate all this internet stuff and have a look at it for myself. You are absolutely correct that building work has commenced – I can see all the H&S building signs plastering the market (now that’s gaudy signage I can tolerate! :-)) and some road works. In fact today’s visit made me even more determined that this fantastic Victorian masterpiece is given a proper restoration to all its former glory and peopled with dozens of artisan food suppliers. In fact I believe that Dublin’s Fruit Market, ar from smply equalling Cork’s English Market can instead be far superior and demonstrate, yet again our pre-eminent position in Ireland’s urban hierarchy. Truly the Dublin Fruit Market can become the best place on the island to meet and have truck with producers of quality Irish food and drink products.

    PS. this jaunt led to me to a street in Dublin I had no idea existed – Little Mary Lane – it is a delightful side street with the rather interesting, “Chinatown Malaysian restaurant” and a mock-traditional Irish pub with what looks like a daub wall. It also seems to be the site of Fyffes warehousing in Dublin. The more you know!

  • #745213

    urbanisto
    Participant

    City Markets, Sept 2012

  • #745214

    urbanisto
    Participant

  • #745215

    urbanisto
    Participant

  • #745216

    aj
    Participant

    No comment needed really.

    On a more positive note,currently there is a nightly light show on the building showing it being built.

    I have to say it looks fantastic, very entertaining I can only imagine how good something like this would look like on one of the big signature buildings in the city.

    Not sure who is behind this show but given the state of the building unlikley to be DCC.

    More of this sort of thing.

  • #745217

    urbanisto
    Participant

    I dunno..could well be DCC Architects who are currently supervising the refurbishment works inside.

    http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie/?p=98

    I hate to seem as if I’m forever coming down on the Council. Of course it is capable of really good work. But in this instance one has to ask whether it would not be better for the building to be handed over to a private company with a brief to restore and develop it as a commercial market.

  • #745218

    aj
    Participant

    So its not DCC Architects but a group of artist for the studio opposite.

    “The Way Wiser Collective are proud to present In Progress, a site-specific animation projected onto DCC Market builing on Little Mary Street. The artwork is part of the local arts festivalGentrify This! Dublin Contemptibles 2 and runs from 13th -30th September, 8pm-9pm.

    The projected animation explores the process of gentrification, through an examination of the Victorian tradesmen who built the DCC Market Building. The collective based the drawings on photographs from The National Library (see http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie/?p=98) providing a direct connection with the period; however, during the process the themes transform and become imaginative interpretations.

    The Way-Wiser Collective was founded in 2011 with the mission of using visual art to explore latent possibilities in the urban landscape and creating interventions to shift public awareness. The members include Gráinne Tynan, Eimear Tynan, Mark Ferguson and Francis Quinn. They work out of The Market Studios, Dublin 7.

    For more information please seehttp://thewaywisercollective.blogspot.ie/p/gentrify-this_10.html and http://dublincontemptibles.wordpress.com/. “

  • #745219

    aindriu80
    Participant

    Looks like they are going to turn Dublin’s Victorian fruit market into a continental-style market and cafes :crazy: nice !

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dublin-s-victorian-fruit-market-to-be-redeveloped-1.1498008

    I hope they do a good job. If its a nice place to visit it will do very well.

  • #745220

    urbanisto
    Participant

    I welcome it …but this has been reannounced about 5 times in the past 3 years. Just get on with it!

  • #745221

    fergalr
    Participant

    I dream of a day when that bank building on the corner of Little Mary St on the corner of Capel St is torn down to properly extend the vista west from the Spire.

  • #745222

    urbanisto
    Participant

    The ailing Dublin City Business Association and Dublin City Council combined on Tues 25 Feb to host a seminar on A Rejuvenated Dublin City Markets and a piece in the Irish Times follows today:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/plans-for-historic-dublin-market-to-be-lodged-next-month-1.1704503

    The seminar was a rather staid affair, despite the interesting subject matter. Much of the audience must have felt like ‘announcement fodder’, given that questions or comments from the floor weren’t taken. Nevertheless there was the, at least, positive development that we have moved from discussing the Market Hall as a “hidden gem” in the north city to actually doing something about its chronic underuse of the past 20-30 years. At a ‘Food in the City’ seminar a couple of years back the city council was almost pleasantly surprised to hear that all these ready-made market halls dotted the city – what luck!

    The Council is currently undertaking a refurbishment of the Market Hall including repainting the roof and ironwork and replacing electrics etc. Its been ongoing for 2 years now.

    http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie/?p=83#more-83

    To listen to the City Council officials present, the Markets are being managed in an exemplary manner against the odds, and regular comment was made on the quality of the facade, restored in the late 1990s by DCC and winner of the Europa Nostra Award in 2000. Inevitably those stunning floodlit images abounded. But as we know, the reality is far from these images and as I have frequently commented here and elsewhere the Hall is a filthy, poorly maintained site, covered in graffiti, surrounded by what must be the most dismal public realm in the city.

    Nevertheless, the plans of the Council in this instance are very welcome, for the Hall at least. A mix of stall types within and various facilities such as cafes and toilets etc. The Chancery Lane facade is to be removed and replaced with a glass front to allow light and warmth into the Hall. A sheltered area to the front of this will allow for outdoor market stalls. Curiously, no mention was made of the former steel girders etc of the Fish Market which was demolished about 2007. The original Framework Plan vision for the Markets was to reuse its steelwork to add to the Fruit & Veg Market Hall. But sure who knows where this stuff is now. Rumours a few years back were that the entire Fish Market was bought lock, stock and red-brick barrell and transported to Switzerland, a place where they undoubtedly appreciate these things more.

    The site of the Fish Market is now a car park, a la the 1980s mode. These new plans are to retain the car park and the long serving city council official who announced the plans paid a rather worrying emphasis on the parking. But it must be recognised that some parking is needed. A much better addition in my view would be to construct a Luas stop on Chancery Lane to serve the Market. The mention of road safety audits and the like suggests that a whole rake of new signs and traffic engineering solutions are being devised for the huge ‘conflict’ that will inevitably arise here. Its only necessary to walk around the area to see how clutter much abounds; there’s hardly a tree or a quality stretch of pavement in sight.

    One of the big omissions from the day was the lack of recognition of the wider Markets Area audits poor quality and uninviting public realm. Its not attractive to walk here. Its not a destination. It doesn’t feel desirable or safe or interesting. But the wider area must wait.

    Also not discussed is how the new retail market will be managed. Who is going to do this? What’s the model? I would hardly be confident that the diminishing City Council could do this. But this matter wasnt even addressed, although DCBA did make a plea at the end for an SIV to be established to run the Market, perhaps with them controlling this (?).

    The most interesting element of the day undoubtedly came from the visiting delegation from Borough Markets in London. Telling their story of 20 years of progressive development of the markets in Southwark, the former trustee (the markets are not council owned but rather owned and controlled by a Board of Trustees for over 250 years) and the project architect showed just how visionary a project like this can be. What struck me most is the degree of refinement and quality that pervades Borough Markets and the innovative way that the Trustees leveraged additional uses to the area and expanded into the derelict surrounding area, all without demolishing it wholescale (as was proposed under the 2007 plans by DCC and its former partners for Dublin City Markets).

    Looking to the wider city, I am not at all confident that air of refinement and quality will establish in the City Markets. This will be a shame, as it is on so many other supposedly ‘quality’ streets in the city centre.

    A Part VIII planning application for the redevelopment will be lodged in March. Work to commence in November and the Markets to open in September 2015. David Brennan of DCBA at least suggested that a limited retail market be established in the meantime to build a profile for the new venture.

    A 2012 report by DBCA on the issue can be read here: http://www.dcba.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Towards-a-Rejuvenated-Vibrant-Thriving-Dublin-City-Market-Quarter.pdf

  • #745223

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    Plan for a clock tower for the markets… just nothing much changes… plan… drop plan… plan again…

    1869 – Design for Clock Tower & Market, Green St., Dublin

  • #745224

    jinx9000
    Participant

    thanks for that very informative post stephen. i just hope DCC hold the Borough Markets as a yardstick of quality which they will try to match or even better!

  • #745225

    exene1
    Participant

    Thanks for post stephen.

    @paul Clerkin wrote:

    Plan for a clock tower for the markets… just nothing much changes… plan… drop plan… plan again…

    http://archiseek.com/2014/1869-design-for-clock-tower-green-st-dublin/#.UxH8xPmwIQc

    Lol I’d remove the round tower bit on the left :wtf: This was presumably to be on the corner of Green Street and Little Britain Street.

    This was a 2007 application for an 8 storey building on Little Britain Street. Dublin City Council planning department were brainlessly permitting buildings of any size at the time (2859/07). It was pulled back to 6 storeys on appeal (PL29N.224378), but no changes to the crappy tiger spec rounded glazing ignoring the character of the area. Long expired now.

  • #745226

    thebig C
    Participant

    I see your point exene, and would add that had such a structure been built given the peripheral locale it would most likely have stood empty for years.

    Having said that, this whole Noth West corner of the City is so appaling from every aspect that literally anything could potentially be an improvement. From a historic point of view, what remains of the original fabric of the area is either gone or mauled almost beyond recognition. Likewise, in contrast to the above proposal, speculative developments in the nineties and noughties (mostly by the bottom feeders of the construction fraternity) have been unambitious pastiche of the worst kind. Likewise, the City Councils attempts at renewal have mostly involved building suburban scale houses resulting in a loss of urban character.

    Still, DCC clearly aren’t too far out of step as ABP and An Taisce would rather bury their heads in the sand and protect non-existent fabric and protect vistas (of what exactly) to further rob the general area of investment.

    C

  • #745227

    rumpelstiltskin
    Participant

    I agree, there’s almost nothing in this area worth saving. I can’t see a problem with that proposal above, if it improves on the dump that’s already there. Where’s the loss exactly in removing buildings that are either derelict, or so undistinguished that they were mediocre even at the time they were built? And I don’t see the problem with going up a few storeys since we’re apparently living in the 21st century, when European capital cities generally don’t have one storey warehouses and two storey huts less than a mile from the city’s main street.

    I think the attitude towards preservation is a bit extreme here sometimes. We should be focusing on improving the quays and preserving Georgian Dublin, not on dreck like this area.

  • #745230

    urbanisto
    Participant

    It would be at least helpful to assess the buildings in the area and determine what might be retained and what could be replaced. Even that hasn’t been done. There are some nice little buildings and there are a number of others which, while unremarkable, could be converted to something quite nice with the application of a bit of taste. Again, the surrounds of Borough Markets in London is an example where much of the existing older building stock was retained and reused successfully.

    I’m not aware of any architectural assessment of the area.

    There are lots that can go.

  • #745231

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes, many of these buildings are essential to the character of the environs of the markets and can be economically regenerated, forming an important part of the brand of the district. Indeed, the defiant notion that everything should be cleared, when virtually everything has already been cleared, is typical of the perverse thinking that goes on in this city.

    @thebig C wrote:

    this whole North West corner of the City is so appalling from every aspect that literally anything could potentially be an improvement.

    Well no, actually. That’s how we’ve ended up with so much mediocre, incongruous development in Dublin over the past two decades.

    Still, DCC clearly aren’t too far out of step as ABP and An Taisce would rather bury their heads in the sand and protect non-existent fabric and protect vistas (of what exactly) to further rob the general area of investment.

    What is this assertion based on? Any representation it makes is based on urban design principles and upholding provisions of the Dublin City Development Plan.

    Trevor White was spot on about the lack of ’empathy’ for Dublin in his Irish Times article yesterday. The disturbingly pervasive ‘anything is better than nothing’ mindset in Dublin, amongst both Dubliners and non-Dubliners, is unquestionably more corrosive than any perceived – and typically inaccurate – ‘anti-development’, sentiment. In fact, it’s one of the greatest insults you can hurl at your city.

  • #745232

    rumpelstiltskin
    Participant

    Graham, when it comes to this cesspit of an area, anything is better than nothing. And, in fact, nothing would be better than what’s there – razing blocks to the ground and paving them with concrete would be better. There’s literally no way to salvage whatever character it once had – unless you’re going a sort of I don’t give a shit/halting site type of vibe. If vainly trying to restore character involves building more ugly two and three storey boxes clad in red brick – I’d rather take the “corporate” eight storey buildings that might actually bring more people to live in a derelict shithole which, being so central in our capital city, verges on a national embarrassment.

  • #745233

    exene1
    Participant

    A most interesting area due to retaining its historic use. For sure, an assessment of the area is needed to determine what is of value. Example of some features here from that Little Britain Street area north of the main markets:

    This corner building has a presence and is worth keeping in any future regeneration. It was the Little Green Gallery for a while.

    A few doors away one & a bit storeys of an 18th century brick house survives. Nothing much maybe, but should at least be assessed.

    Then an interesting little grouping of buildings here on Cuckoo Lane; a goods building with a crane hoist – once seen all over the city but now fairly rare – and a nice pedimented warehouse just out of view behind it.

    And this doorway which faces St. Michan’s Park / playground needs to be investigated.

    Anyway a fuller survey is needed.

    That 2007 proposal posted earlier for Little Britain Street is spectacularly non-contextual. Some further images of it here – http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00153952.pdf We need to get new development to respond to and add to the character of the city.

    Will development ever get going again in the markets area or wider city centre? Who knows. But we need to learn from the past.

  • #745234

    rumpelstiltskin
    Participant

    That says it all really.

  • #745235

    urbanisto
    Participant

    @rumpelstiltskin wrote:

    Graham, when it comes to this cesspit of an area, anything is better than nothing. And, in fact, nothing would be better than what’s there – razing blocks to the ground and paving them with concrete would be better. There’s literally no way to salvage whatever character it once had – unless you’re going a sort of I don’t give a shit/halting site type of vibe. If vainly trying to restore character involves building more ugly two and three storey boxes clad in red brick – I’d rather take the “corporate” eight storey buildings that might actually bring more people to live in a derelict shithole which, being so central in our capital city, verges on a national embarrassment.

    I think you are maybe a tad over critical of the area rumpelstilskin. Its certainly dismal but a ‘cesspit’ might be a bit strong. I agree that its streetscapes are grim and unrelenting…acres of tarmac and cement and not an ounce of quality in everything from lighting to a humble bench.

    However, the area does have two attractive housing areas – Ormonde Sq and Church Street dwellings – albeit very suburban in nature. There’s a park – Halston Green and some fine buildings surrounding it – St Michan’s Catholic, the former Newgate and former Green Street courthouse. There’s a number of curiosities which Kevin alludes to above and there’s similar on Mary’s Abbey. Even within some of those dismal warehouses there are spaces which with imagination could be very interestingly reused…this is especially true of the warehouse at the end of Meetinghouse Lane and also accessed from Capel Street.

    Undoubtedly the big boxes of Total and Ffyfes must go and there are a good many decrepit buildings that might be replaced a long Mary’s Lane and the block between it and Halston Street. River House on Chancery Street another big behemoth of nothing for the chop. Then comes to the former Fish Market site…now a car park, and proposed by Dublin City Council under the forthcoming Market Part VIII to be…. eh a surface car park. That is missed opportunity if ever.

    Its grim – I dont doubt it. Its filthy and uncared for. Streets such as Greek Street are canyons of gloom. There’s not a tree in sight but rank after rank of poles and signage. But its not irredeemable and the essential fabric of the place can be captured in any new redevelopment, rather than completely lost in a sterile homogeneous development like that proposed in 2009. Actually getting back to the original 2005 vision might make good sense. A nice sense of urbanism to that I thought.

    Dublin City Council is currently devising a 10-point plan for the area as part of the Public Realm Strategy and Brownfield Sites Initiative. Sticky plaster stuff.

    It is however, an embarrassment that it has been allowed to descend to its present condition. And even the Council’s ‘stewardship’ of the Fruit & Veg Market Hall is derisory. Not that Council seemed at all to acknowledge at the recent seminar on same. But then, do they ever.

    I certainly support more urgency to its rehabilitation….not a 2.5 year paint job of a roof!

  • #745236

    rumpelstiltskin
    Participant

    I’m all for maintaining character, I just really don’t think there’s anything left here, aside from one or two buildings. Common sense says Ormond Square should be razed to the ground, and yet I suppose it’s quirky that something like that is at that location. However, I really do think this is an area that needs to be mostly razed and redesigned, including the rest of that two storey housing. Something doesn’t have to be old to have character, and as the photographs above demonstrate, something which is old doesn’t necessarily have character, or isn’t necessarily worthy of being saved. I’d be in favour of the council just publishing some firm guidelines on what can and can’t be built here, nothing below six storeys for example, and the threat of garroting should anybody complain about shadows, and letting private interests pour their money into the area. Because that’s the only way it’s getting better in our lifetimes, when even the main street going from Christ Church to the biggest tourist attraction in the country is an unspeakable kip after 20 years of a booming economy.

  • #745228

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    [attachment=0:2xxkjags]1459898_10203439877386876_1489994064_n.jpg[/attachment:2xxkjags]

    A 1903 report from the Evening Telegraph

  • #745229

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Very sophisticated planning drawing there.
    What a great find..and how on earth did you find it….you’re attic must be enormous

    The application for the restored Market must be due soon

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