Dublin Street Lighting

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This topic contains 164 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  urbanisto 3 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #707832

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Well here’s the thread for street lighting as orginated in the O’ Connell St thread.
    I think it’s perhaps appropriate that both old, new and everything in between be included, hence the generic title – not least to show how public lighting in the city has progressed up to the present day.

    Well to begin with, what follows is a rough history entitled ‘The Lampposts of O’Connell Street – From Lamplighter to LED’ 😀
    Much of the information is derived from an eye-straining sorting through of hundreds photographs from books, pamphlets and the internet, as well as archive footage.

    As you’d expect, there’s a bit of cross-over with other city streets as some lighting schemes covered more than just O’Connell St.
    Anyway I hope this is of some interest to people other than myself :o; there seems to be some general interest in the topic anyway….!

    Rather than trying to cover the disjointed schemes of the 18th & early 19th centuries, and accounting for the lack of images from the period, this starts in the 1870s, some 45 years after gas was introduced to Dublin in 1825.

    1870s
    To start, these small gas-powered column lanterns were used to light O’Connell St, Westmoreland St, College Green and Grafton St, with many other places using a similar design post and possibly identical lamps.
    Placed along the edge of footpaths on O’Connell St, they featured an unusually decorative base, the lower part fluted, fairly short shaft, large glass lamp and possibly a lead-clad roof:

    During this time and right through into the 20th century, similar lampposts surrounding various statues played an important role in lighting the centre of the street.

    1880
    O’Connell Bridge opens, adorned with no less than 39 gas-fuelled lamps, attached to some of the grandest standards ever erected in the city – 3 five-armed columns on the median, and 4 three-armed columns on each parapet of the bridge. These must have created quite a stir when first lit:


    (Devin’s pic)

    1892
    In a major step forward, some 78 electrically powered lampposts were installed along O’Connell St, O’Connell Bridge, Westmoreland St, D’Olier St, College St, College Green, Grafton St, Dame St, Parliament St, Mary St and Henry St.
    These were the first electric lamps ever to light Dublin’s main streets and were powered from a new station at Fleet St. This project also seems to have been the first unified lighting scheme for the city centre.

    Quite American in design, these were the tallest lampposts ever erected on O’Connell St to date. They featured long elegant columns rising out of a typical fluted base and were capped with a hurricane-like lamp – the glass globe suspended from a hooped frame and powered by the cable entering its underside from the top of the shaft.
    Some, if not all also featured a mesh-like wire over the globes.

    They were positioned along the edge of the side pavements of O’Connell St, but also the odd one in the now-median area. One was also placed directly in front of O’Connell Monument and surrounded by four bollards as the street’s ‘introductory’ post:

    One post was also placed on each of the four corners of O’Connell Bridge, and on William Smith O’Brien’s island as can be seen here:

    You can also see one to the rear of O’Connell, with that monument’s impressive 1882 columns also evident:

    It seems these electric lamps rode roughshod over gas-lit areas, including the bridge. Some of the older small posts mentioned earlier seem to have remained for quite a number of years after these new electric ones both came and went. Gas took a long time to leave it seems.

    Cntd…

  • #755614

    GrahamH
    Participant

    1903-10
    Sometime during this period these relatively young electric lampposts were removed, probably due their antiquated technology. It’s possible it happened in 1903 as this is the year the Fleet St station shut down in favour of the Pigeon House.
    Arguably O’Connell Street’s finest period in lighting then commenced with the erection of around 30 decorative posts in a symmetrical fashion the whole way down the street.

    Perhaps the most commonly known of O’Connell Street’s lampposts due to their similarity to the more common Victorian wrought/cast-iron headed versions around Dublin, these new posts were a little smaller in height and featured swan-neck heads. The film Michael Collins probably makes these recognisable to most people as they featured extensively, especially their large and cumbersome fittings, upon the ends of which the glass globes were attached. They also featured shamrock detail on top and intricate scroll detail all executed in iron.

    These were positioned exclusively along the edge of the side pavements, and on the four corners of O’Connell Bridge – and as far as can be made out the same models were used on Westmoreland St, College Green etc.
    Most interestingly, if you want to know what they looked like in real life, it seems some of them were moved and still survive in use on Harcourt St as pictured below. They seem to be identical. Considering there’s only the odd one on Harcourt amongst other posts, it’s very possible these originally came from O’Connell St.

    1900-1916
    Sometime during this period O’Connell Bridge’s lanterns were reduced in number due to safety concerns, with the parapet columns being cut down to single-lamp posts and the median standards down to three arms from their previous five. Sadly, much of the bridge’s grandeur was lost as a result, something it didn’t regain for nearly a century.

    1920-23
    During this period, new rather bizarre looking electric lamps were attached to the swan-neck posts, replacing the earlier globes. Some of these can be seen swinging loosely in the wind in some footage. They survived right up till the end of these grand post’s lives. These lampposts also seem to have experienced a variety of colours including black/dark grey, silver and possibly even white for the Eucharistic Congress! Here’s an example of the strange heads in the form of an identical Dawson St version from the period:

    Cntd…

  • #755615

    GrahamH
    Participant

    1936-39
    Huge change is ushered in with this period with a vast amount of lamppost up-rooting on O’Connell St and the city centre overall. It saw the installation of the city’s trademark brown, arched, double-headed aggregate concrete lampposts along many major streets including O’Connell St, O’Connell Bridge, Westmoreland St, D’Olier St, College St, College Green and possibly Dame St and Parnell Square – at least 70 posts.

    A total of approximately 32 posts went up on O’Connell St, exclusively along the side pavements resulting in a magnificent marching procession of posts far into the distance along the thoroughfare. As with by now established tradition, four models were also installed on O’Connell Bridge (though in a slightly different position than previously), as well as four mini-lamps on the corners of the plinth of Nelson’s Pillar:

    Art Deco in design, these posts featured a large tapered concrete base which was stepped at the top, a tall hexagonal concrete shaft, and were topped with two half-arches with attractive ridged detailing, from each were suspended a charming copper-roofed lamp comprised of a delicate metal frame fitted with frosted glass:

    They proved especially effective in lighting the streets, casting light both downwards and outwards.
    Considering they went up just before the War, I wonder why concrete was used as presumably metal shortages hadn’t kicked in yet?…
    Concrete posts of a different style also went up on the quays and all over the city subsequently.

    1961-66
    During this period rather crude utilitarian posts of the kind seen in older shopping centre car parks went up along the disjointed median space of O’Connell St, presumably to light what had itself largely become a car park by this stage.
    These survived until around 1980, if not until 1988:

  • #755616

    GrahamH
    Participant

    1975-78
    This period ushered in a dark period, quite literally, for the city centre’s street lighting.
    All of the grand concrete posts on O’Connell Street were removed, along with those on Westmoreland St, College Green and possibly Dame St. The only ones to survive were those of O’Connell Bridge, D’Olier St and College St – about 17 in all.
    They were replaced with double and single floodlights mounted on the city’s buildings directed down onto the streets. Unfortunately for O’Connell St they merely contributed to the flashy tacky nature of the place, and eroded the linear nature of the street, so expertly generated by the previous posts:

    In around 1980 the two northern concrete posts on O’Connell Bridge also disappeared, to be eventually replaced with nothing but tall motorway-like posts with about 3 lamps attached way above at the top.

    1987-88
    As part of the city’s ‘Millennium’ celebrations, O’Connell St finally got a bit of care and attention – albeit superficial – with the unification of the median space and the erection of heritage-style three-arm lampposts: their bases and shafts replicating the city’s Victorian stock:

    Of their time, but effective and attractive – they provided pools of light amongst the foliage of the great plane trees, made the median feel more secure at night and looked well in their own right during the day. Only a handful now remain on the upper end of the street, and are about to be removed.

    1998-2003
    This period saw positive and perhaps negative things happen on O’Connell Bridge.
    In an inspired move by Dublin City Council all of the lamps on the bridge were restored to their original glory, if not better with the parapets back to three arms and the medians back to their five armed splendour – the first restored precisely 80 years after they were altered.


    (1st pic Archiseek)

    The copper heads of the lanterns could be a new feature as in black and white pictures they always seem to be have been black. The material’s presence on Grattan Bridge too now would suggest it to be a contemporary modification.

    However the last of the concrete posts on the bridge were removed from the southern end in around 1999 – an appropriate move given the works on the bridge lanterns and their fitting out with bright white bulbs, but marking the end of an era. The subsequent piece-meal removal of some of the remaining posts on D’Olier St and College St should not have/be happened/ing.

    2004+
    We’re now seeing the execution of the first unified lighting scheme involving posts on O’Connell Street in nearly 70 years – including the median, side pavements and plaza.
    Whatever one may think of the new scheme, it is welcome to see lampposts once again regaining a central role (perhaps too literally :)) in the public domain of the country’s main street.

    Just a note on the dates stated – where hyphenated this refers to the approximate period in which the posts were erected/removed rather than the length of time the process took. In most, if not all cases, schemes would have been executed inside a few days or weeks.

  • #755617

    Morlan
    Participant

    Fantastic post Graham – a lot of effort was put in there. Thanks.

    You inspired me to go rooting for some of my Dublin pictures. I hope you don’t mind if post them up.

    Bank Of Ireland Horse lamp.. any info on these fellas?

    O’Connell Bridge

    Temple Bar – any info on this nice lamp?

    O’Connell Bridge.

    St. Stephens Green

    South King St. – shamrock lamps.

    South Ann St. – Odd orb lamps

    Upper Mount St. (Some have you will have seen this pic before.)

  • #755618

    Devin
    Participant

    RE: THE SILVER REPRODUCTION LAMPS

    @phil wrote:

    To replace [the Art Deco] lamps with reproduction ‘heritage’ lamps displays a very warped sense of history

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    On one level it is warped indeed, but I think it is important to note that these silver lampposts are much more than just heritage pieces of furniture: they are as much a part of Dublin as red telephone boxes are to London. And I presume that in some areas of that city brand new boxes have also been installed over the years in places where needed not because they’re olde worlde, but because they embody the city in a manner like nothing else.

    Likewise in Dublin, in fairness to the City Council, the erection of these lampposts in appropriate places is generally executed in this spirit rather than in that of a yearning for the days of yore as is generally the case with pastiche concoctions.

    I hope it is ok to cross-quote into this thread (for fear of quoting out-of-context, the original posts are here: http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=33946#post33946 ). Since they make up such a heavy proportion of the city centre’s lamp stock, I think it’s probably best to talk about the silver repros in a dedicated Lamp Standards thread.

    There are two basic types of repro lamp in use in the city. The first, and most heavily used, is quite a flimsy and, in my opinion, poorly-detailed historic-style lamp. It is found on: Winetavern Street, the Quays (excluding 6 beautiful original shamrocks outside the Four Courts), Stoney Batter, North King Street (part of), Parnell Street (part of), Summerhill, Capel Street (north end), Abbey Street Lower, Mayor Street (most of) & Commons Street in the Docklands, Fleet Street (painted blue), Ship Street (part of, painted black) Sth. Gt. George’s Street, Aungier Street, Wexford Street, Camden Street, Heytesbury Street, New Street, Dean Street, Clanbrassil Street, Harcourt Street, Ely Place and Herbert Street (the last three streets have some originals as well).

    I can’t agree about the validity of these, Graham. I think there is something sick about smothering so many important city centre streets with what is a fairly cheap and nasty piece of false history.

    Then there is the other, more substantial and less-used type, which is a fairly accurate replica of probably the most common genuine historic Dublin lamp standard (apparently dating to 1900-30 and found extensively throughout the North and South Georgian cores). It has a stout, deeply moulded base & ornate head. They are quite an impressive replica and are sometimes hard to tell from the originals, but the giveaway is the column]http://img226.echo.cx/img226/7108/reproductraditlamps1a4dr.jpg[/IMG]

    Silver repros on the Quays

  • #755619

    GrahamH
    Participant

    That is one comprehensive listing of locations 🙂

    Agreed about the flimsy thin modern repros, they look tacky and are so obviously cheap imitations. If anything, rather than their high level of detailing by contemporary standards contributing to the streetscape in favour of supposedly inadequate modern design, they actually do the opposite, demonstrating even more-so how badly we treat lamp post design today and how incompetent we an be.

    Look at these on the quays as mentioned: their proportions are so off the scale that they actually make Zoe’s scheme behind look like high art 🙂

    Agreed about not using the quality posts willy nilly, but I think that it is a worthy idea to broadly unify the city centre’s lighting where appropriate with quality – not going to say replica cause they’re more than that – silver columns.
    Patrick Street as you mention Devin is the very street I was thinking of before and I think they look magnificent – including at night. Their quality design, fine proportions, regularly spaced placing and high level of light emitted make these one of the finest use of such posts, and make for a fitting contribution to the environment of Christchurch, St Patrick’s and the Iveagh Buildings.

    Which is why I’d also support their insertion on St. Stephen’s Green, a place where their impact would be magnificent and would tie in with all surrounding streets’ similar original posts, not to mention their suitability to the largely historic environment of course
    Saying that, the use of them (the poor imitation ones) on Camden St, Aungier St etc is one step too far – the CC are using the excuse of unifying the city too much here – it just smacks of not being bothered to come up with some decent contemporary design, likewise with the many other secondary places that Devin mentions.

    Speaking of replicas – this page is rather ironic 😀

    http://www.irisheyes.org/dlamp.html

    There are also two types of the original, one with the classic plinth-like base, the other a probably later slightly tapered base with stud detailing around the top, as used outside the Custom House, think they’re the one’s used outside the Four Courts as mentioned (always been impressed with how the CC managed to position the posts dead centred on the Custom House & Four Courts without disrupting the overall quay placing :)), and in use all over the south city but painted green such as on Palmerston Road. They’re also used on Merrion St, but the heads don’t appear to be original and are too small for the proportions of the posts.

    Here’s a magnificent image of the Baggot St repros as taken by a Marko Krivograd:


    http://www.harphampix.com/v2/document.php?id=8654

  • #755620

    Devin
    Participant

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    That is one comprehensive listing of locations 🙂

    It’s easy by bike 🙂 .

    Agreed about the proportion of the lamps & the Quays. There are some even greater absurdities in terms of proportion and relating to the street]really[/I] want to see any more of the (better quality) silver lamps, Graham. A lot survive in the 2 Georgian areas – I think it should be left at that. I take your point about the historic environment of St. Stephen’s Green. But to be honest, I would rather see the existing ‘60s/’70s curving lamps left – they have an attractive simplicity about them….I just can’t take any more fussy historic reproduction in the city!!

    As far as I have been able to glean, the planning / architects section of the Council are not consulted in relation to removal / insertion of lamps on the city’s streets (unless of course it is a specific, coordinated scheme like O’Cll Street). This appals me!! It seems the Public Lighting section just go and do what they want….you have to ask would the city be so riddled with nasty repros otherwise?

    Of the two original types, I think of the stout, plinth-like based one as the ‘male’, and the tapered-base one with stud detailing & shamrock in the centre of the head as more ‘feminine’. Yeah, they’re situated alongside the Four Courts – respite from the flimsies on the rest of the Quays! (I think it’s the stout, plinth-based ones (in repro form) that are outside the Custom House).

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    This is an example of what results when you have the brainless blanket installation of repros on city centre streets, without thinking about scale and spacing: two tall lamps inappropriately shoved up close to each other on adjoining streets & so at different angles (in an important location). I know there was a lot of street furniture around in past times, but you’d never see something like this:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I think these lamps at Guinness’s (from the An Taisce report ‘Dublinspirations’) are an excellent example of the options available other than repro:

  • #755621

    GrahamH
    Participant

    @devin wrote:

    I would rather see the existing [Green] ‘60s/’70s curving lamps left – they have an attractive simplicity about them….I just can’t take any more fussy historic reproduction in the city!!

    That’s the problem I think with all this cheap repro stuff, it makes you sick of the concept full stop! I see what you mean about the curving posts on the Green, they have a certain retro feel to them too :), but in their current context of adorning multiple lanes of traffic I think they look just as they are, basic 70s functional stock shoved in for the practical reason of lighting a virtual motorway surrounding the Green – i.e. awful.
    The trademark columns installed here would link in with the two other squares next door, and all surrounding Georgian streets – they’d also unify the sqaure which is increasing falling apart into an incoherent mess 🙁

    That’s extraordinary that the planning section of the CC aren’t involved in post selection or preservation – no wonder such inappropriate schemes like the Summerhill farce are as they are.

    I think of the stout, plinth-like based one as the ‘male’, and the tapered-base one with stud detailing & shamrock in the centre of the head as more ‘feminine’.

    I’ve often thought of these like that too! – even if I’ve always preferred the former :o, they’re more rooted in classical design and are more solid looking…
    You’re right about the ones outside the Custom House – and there used to be similar Stephen’s Green-like posts here too in the 70s – along with the containers and all the rest of it.

    The more I think about the c1937 lampposts, the more utterly ridiculous it is that they have/are being removed. Think of surrounding streets – Westmoreland St, Dame St, College Green – none have any posts at all, yet the very place where there was some, and original pieces of period street furniture at that, they were removed and replaced with expensive new posts! It’s just ridiculous!

    I saw with interest Devin in your City Hall post that the archies are still visible marching down the street – the axe just about to fall on them in the coming months after the pic being taken…

    That last picture posted there is interesting – I have a picture of a startling similar warehouse location from the 70s with unusual posts – must post it soon.

  • #755622

    Devin
    Participant

    How the CC resisted putting in the standard skinny heritage repros in there in that historic and heavily-touristed location, I don’t know. But apparently those lamps at Guinness’s were planned & designed by the CC Lighting section … and how well they complement the surrounding circa 1900 industrial architecture!.…so lads, more of this approach please & less of the blanket ‘heritage’ approach!

    That’s extraordinary that the planning section of the CC aren’t involved in post selection or preservation

    The remarkable thing is that seemingly all other items of the city’s historic street furniture – stone & cast iron bollards, stone paving & setts, coal hole covers etc. – are listed for protection in the development plan….but not lamp standards 😮 (An T have asked the CC to come up with a policy for lamp standards that would protect remaining originals, encourage good contemp design & restrict use of historic reproduction).

    That Irish Eyes site you linked Graham is hilarious 😀 ……..pure paddywhackery! ………but at least they managed to snap an original circa 1900 lamp standard lurking on Beresford Place and not a modern replica around the corner on Custom House Quay!

  • #755623

    Morlan
    Participant

    Just to add to the pictorial thesis.. here’s a fine picture of our ‘brown, arched, double-headed aggregate concrete lampposts’ on O’Connell St. (1950s)

    Another picture I took the other day on College Green:

  • #755624

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Look at it there – sure isn’t it just lovely 🙂 (although in need of restoration at the top there)

    Was looking at them today, they really are charming pieces of street furniture – unlike other posts these actually weather; they mellow with age. And the way the lamps hang so delicately from the arches is striking – they’re not just clamped on, rather they’re suspended just perfectly, as if held by a forefinger and thumb 🙂

    In your O’Connell St pic there Morlan it is interesting to note how fast the street changed, and how radically, with the addition of the lower median trees from the 60s on – what a change from the scene there.

    Regarding the skinny repros, it was mentioned before but the way that they have been installed on one entire side of Harcourt St as a result of the Luas works, allbethey with original/full size heads is a disgrace – notably the only major element of the Luas works on this street that was carried out by the CC :rolleyes:
    As far as I remember this whole stretch had original chunky posts – the current ones are a joke. Harcourt St more than most depends on its historic charm – these quality pieces of street furniture were a central part of that.

    Here’s a pic of a ‘female’ base on Merrion St, as well as the ‘males’ piling up on Merrion Square South:

    And the O’Connell Bridge standards which are specifically protected as far as I remember seeing. They have some exceptionally fine detailing, notably their twisted columns:

    Also their fine classical swags and snarling tritons – a triton being one of the Greek gods of the sea. Usually they have the head of a man and a fish body, but obviously it was decided to go the whole way here 🙂

  • #755625

    J. Seerski
    Participant

    Some lamps in Clontarf and Rathmines are unique – they were commissioned for their respective townships when there were autonomous from Dublin Corporation.

    New lamps on O’Connell Street – vile.

  • #755626

    GrahamH
    Participant

    🙂

    Yes the township posts are generally very fine – even the charming little green pillar-posts on hundreds of residential streets.
    The larger main road posts often have the township and date stamped into them – ussally they were new electric c1900 ones.

    What is very special and still surviving in a form is the very early electric lighting used to light what was the ultra-modern, not to mention ultra fashionable Cowper Road/Gardens if not the surrounding area also. The lighting here is made up of pairs of green posts facing each other across the road with a wire suspended between the two, from which hangs a (now modern) lamp in the middle of the road!
    You see it a lot in the UK but very few examples over here. A wonderful feature and it’s great to see it has been preserved by SD CC or whoever covers this area – rather than taking the wires down and putting heads on the posts.
    Now if this had been in a deprived area – hmmmm…

  • #755627

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Leeson Park once had the same lighting as Cowper Road, it looked great as the light was distributed from the centre of the road which cut down black spots dramatically.

    Any chance of a poll on favourite Irish light flitting once the poll on Dublin Bridges is finished?

  • #755628

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Or favourite Irish kerbstone 😀

    It’d be difficult to draw up a shortlist of posts though, as smaller ones can’t really compete with the larger.
    Also the more well known ones will always have a headstart – bit like the bridge poll, it might as well be titled ‘What is Dublin’s most famous bridge?’ 🙂 (though O’Donovan Rossa has proved surprisingly popular)

    That’s interesting about Leeson Park – trying think of what’s there now but it escapes me…
    Still lots of lovely little green column posts in the area though, often gas orginally but with c1900 electric decorative heads on them with delicate foliage detail & shamrocks etc.

    Yes the centred lights are very effective at lighting the streets. Despite the new ones being contemporary, they’re still traditionally styled – essentially they’re the lamp of the standard Dublin silver column painted black.

  • #755629

    urbanisto
    Participant

    The rubbish that lines the quays has alweays been a pet hate of mine. I got a glimpse of these additions in front of the Civic Offices. It seems the Quays are being treated to a repro refit. Any thoughts?

  • #755630

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Hmmm – what are they replacing, these suburban yokes?

  • #755631

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Seems so. Sorry my picture is not any clearer…camera phone.

  • #755632

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Generally these small posts can look very well traditionally styled as long as the major posts of the roadway provide clear guidance as to what century it is 🙂
    I’d be happy to see every last replica on the quays ditched in favour of contemporary posts, but with a more traditionally styled smaller post along the historic quay walls. And not necessarily a twee ‘olden days’ lamp, but something along the lines of the recent lamps that went up along Strand Road on the way out to Blackrock – they’re distinctly modern yet have a classical early-electric look to them which works very well.

    Just on those c1903 posts on O’Connell St again – took a few stills from the film Michael Collins and must admit to being a little more than pleased at finding this 🙂 :

    The posts on Harcourt St are the exact same posts that were on O’Cll St in the early 20th century – indeed the film reproduced them absolutely perfectly, down to the last detail! Also interesting to note that the globes were of a lovely frosted glass rather than completely opaque as usually comes across in contemporary photos.

    The film also tells us that there’s at least someone in the City Council interested in these matters as presumably the art directors and researchers consulted with the CC on the street furniture of O’Cll St of the time. So clearly someone knew where to direct them towards original examples…

    Which is why it is so very strange in light of this attention to detail (and lots more) that Jordan decided to merge the two streets opposite the GPO together into an imaginary street – Talville Row as it were 😀
    You don’t want to see the stills of that, they’re too embarrassing….

  • #755633

    phil
    Participant

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    Which is why it is so very strange in light of this attention to detail (and lots more) that Jordan decided to merge the two streets opposite the GPO together into an imaginary street – Talville Row as it were 😀
    You don’t want to see the stills of that, they’re too embarrassing….

    As I read your post that was all I could think of… poetic license taken to extremes! 🙂

  • #755634

    GrahamH
    Participant

    😀

    Oh go on then:

    The Mansion House, Leinster House railings, Sheahan Memorial and Hammam Hotel all on the same street!!!

  • #755635

    Plug
    Participant

    My minds still boggled that they can’t even be arsed to put the same colour temperature bulbs in the mutti headed fittings on the bridge, it’s a disgrace 😡

  • #755636

    Devin
    Participant

    They lost a lot of credential in Michael Collins by messing around with the places so much, esp. putting the GPO at the end of a street :rolleyes: . That would even strike people as wrong who don’t really look at the city.

    I imagine the 1903 post used in the film is a real one & not a replica.

  • #755637

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Never thought of that – though there’s quite a few of them…

    Yes the way they messed around with locations and buildings like playthings in a toy town certainly lost it a lot of credibility – especially this street opposite the GPO, with the geography of the city being so central to the Rising.

    Agreed Plug about the lighting of the bridges – whatever about the replacement colour temperatures, most of the fittings aren’t even lucky enough to get replacement bulbs at all!
    And as for the fittings themselves…..there’s some pics on the bridge poll thread.

  • #755638

    Plug
    Participant

    The lighting on the bridges generally is pretty ropey, its a bit of a bug-bear of mine as I’d love to get a crack at lighting one properly, the’re fabulous structures and could look so good if a bit of thought and artistry was put into them.

    Admittedly the colour temperature thing could be seen as picky, but O’connel bridge is one of the citys landmarks and I thing desrves that extra care and attention, to my mind it just makes it look shoddy.

  • #755639

    GrahamH
    Participant

    I couldn’t agree more about colour temperature as you’ve raised before – not a nit-picky issue in the slightest!
    Not that the tacky green installed in the first place is worthy of replicating with replacement bulbs :rolleyes:
    The whole quay lighting scheme needs to be reviewed, or rather one needs to be put in place!
    An integrated scheme with regular posts along the entire length of the Liffey from Heuston to the Custom House, as well as proper sustainable bridge lighting, not a gimmicky short-term scheme ought to be put in place.

    But the big problem with colour temperature is with the lighting of major buildings such as lighting one half in nasty orange sodium and the other in white, and other similar ridiculous practices.
    This is basic basic stuff.

  • #755640

    Lotts
    Participant

    There’s examples of a lot of the old lamps in Archbishop Ryan Park (Merrion Square). They don’t seem to be in any particular order, nor is there any description given. Nice all the same though.

  • #755641

    Anonymous
    Participant

    This image highlights the relationship between the scale of the posts and the buildings on the Southside of Fitzwilliam square. The traffic signs are not welcome.

  • #755642

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes those flippin signs are tacked onto so many of these posts. If the will was there, plain black poles hosting the signs would simply disappear into the background if used.

    Look at that ghastly 80s brick chimney between the two houses in the background – shiny red brick in place of brown stock :rolleyes:

  • #755643

    hutton
    Participant

    Graham,

    Its always a pleasure to read this thread – particularly with all of the period photos which you uploaded; I note that the thread title appropriatey has a lit bulb as the accompanying icon 😀

    However I don’t know if I agree with your last comment as to “those flippin signs are tacked onto so many of these posts”; it would seem to me that this is probably the better practice than the more frequent one-pole-per-sign/ light/ camera that is done all around Dublin.

    Take the junction on the south side of O’Donovan Rossa Bridge, opposite the Four Courts; between only the four corners of the junction, there are approx 18 poles holding lights and signs, and of course no attempt at consolidation. Poles stand side by side with all most military dignity and precision, each one bearing a singular sign or item as if it were their duty……And you have to ask yourself; “are the poles invading, or do they just multiply at night?”

    :p

  • #755644

    GrahamH
    Participant

    There’s a mystery pole-popper-inner operating in the city for sure anyway…

    I totally agree Hutton about pole mania, but in the case of the Squares, the majority of parking tends to take place around the parks in the centre. Black poles holding these signs would have a negligible impact in front tof the railings and morass of hedging & trees etc.
    I dislike seeing those signs adorn the historic silver posts in the Georgian areas – you wouldn’t be allowed attach signs to the houses’ railings – these are after all conservation areas. And I don’t mean that in a stuffy official way, rather these areas are some of the most enchanting places in Europe to visit, and a distinction should be made where possible between modern additions and the historic stock.

    But to apply your good point, if one were to use poles along say Upper Mount St, one can only imagine the view of them accumulating into the distance. Compromises have to be made in places, but a good guide I think is to use black poles along the perimeters of all the parks, while use the lampposts along the terraced sides.

    Here’s one of two strange posts outside the Rubrics in Trinity that I’m sure everyone has wondered about 🙂
    Anyone know anything about them, that is their rather starnge ‘attending feature’?!

  • #755645

    JPD
    Participant

    I like the idea of the black poles around the Squares I think that the railings would kill most of the effect and give a good contrast to the signs making them clearer to drivers.

  • #755646

    garethace
    Participant

    I like the idea of the black poles around the Squares I think that the railings would kill most of the effect and give a good contrast to the signs making them clearer to drivers.

    You will find an unusual point of view about signage, on this link:

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3896&page=2&pp=25

    What are all of the signs stuck in the ground, doing on Grafton St., anyhow?

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=663

    Street Lighting from Belgium pic attached. To be honest, when you think about ‘street lighting’ you don’t always have to imagine this thing stuck on the top of a very large pole – but that is the cliche that most of us have stuck in our heads unfortunately.

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=876

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=879

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=880

    If the series ‘Behind the Hall Door’ is available on DVD, it would be about as good a starting point as any for the design of street lighting, as part of the urban space. In lighting interiors, the ‘Behind the Hall Door’ teams, went to pains in several of their episodes, to demonstrate how diverse lighting actually is, and what you can do with it, how many different things, lighting can actually be. I mean, this picture demostrates the approach where you stick everything on some kind of cantilevered pole object, and most of the time, it just contributes to dead space, in urban areas, which are already too conjested and unattractive.

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=662

    Why do you need those large protection bollards on Grafton St., anyhow? Here is just another simple example where lighting is used to turn a potentially disasterous utility kind of truck ramp, into an attractive looking piece of urban furniture.

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=881

    Even if lighting from on top of a pole, is a good way to provide basic levels of illumination to an urban space, there is still no need to go overboard on the design and embellishment of those poles. I think that some urban spaces here in Dublin could benefit from less ‘flowerly’ and visual loud lighting poles. That is why I tend to like the ones in the Belgian town picture above.

    Brian O’ Hanlon.

  • #755647

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes those Belgian posts are magnificent – striking pieces of street furniture. High quality design, materials and light emitted.

    On a related issue, just looking at the images from London over the past few days, it’s finally struck me as to what gives London its established mature appearance. I could never pinpoint it exactly till now, obviously aside from its architecture – it is the street furniture. Every single lamppost, sign pole, traffic signal, railing and bollard is painted black – every last one in the city centre. It is extraordinary, not so much that everything is black as a colour, but the fact that care and attention, not to mention plain hard cash, is put into making the city’s furniture look well.

    When one considers the galvanised rubbish that litters our capital, one can only laugh at the idea of authorities here being obliged to do the same. At least things are gradually improving with traffic signal posts in the centre being replaced with the brushed steel finish, even if they are a drop in the ocean.

    As for the bollards on Grafton St you mention Brian, if you are ever there in the early morning you will see how they come into effect with pedestrians using the sides of the street, while vehicular traffic takes over the centre – till 10.30 :rolleyes:

  • #755648

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Often wondered about this post below at the top of Parnell Square – there’s another what I think is an identical post at the junction outside the Bleeding Horse pub and Camden Court Hotel.

    Anyone know if they’re original – being somewhat American in design, with vague influences of Art Nouveau…

  • #755649

    urbanisto
    Participant

    They’re not originals they only went in a few years back when the CC had a fit of installing ‘heritage’ lighting on medians.. Nice though. Pity there’s only a couple of them.

  • #755650

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Thanks Stephen.
    The bases seemed a bit flimsy all right – trademark replica 🙂

    Nice all the same.

  • #755651

    Plug
    Participant

    OK, so technically it’s not a street, but at least we managed to avoid putting lights on a stick on a stick, and with a mixture of optics managed to highlight the building as well as wash the cportyard (tho the eagle eyed amongst you will notice from the “blob” of light in the bottom left that “someone” managed to put the wrong optical arrangement in one of the fittings ! (this has since been rectified)

  • #755652

    Anonymous
    Participant

    That is an interesting image plug, would you consider having a look at the Liffey bridges thread in the polls section?

    This image of the double lamp standard at Fenian St is interesting, I find it rare to find an aspect similar to this one with the post so well framed by the building behind.

  • #755653

    JPD
    Participant

    What a place to put bike stands

  • #755654

    Eric Woods
    Participant

    Hello everyone. Well i just came across this website by mistake and wow its blown me away. Just to let you know who I am. Myself and my dad, David are responsible for alot of the lighting fixtures you are chatting about on your message board. Our jobs include all the gas lanterns in the phoenix park, parkgate entrance, grafton street, henry street, talbot street, dublin castle, city hall, o connell bridge, and many other places around the city. We build all our lanterns by hand and its mainly divided between copper and brass lanterns. The silver lanterns you refer to are also ours! not all of them, but we do manufacture them alot for ireland and the uk. If anyone would like to know anything about our lanterns or pictures i would be delighted. I have thousands of pictures of our work around Ireland. We have just completed manufacturing lanterns for all our garda stations. Ok nice to see all your posts on the board.

    Regards
    Eric

  • #755655

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Hi Eric – do you design them too?

  • #755656

    Eric Woods
    Participant

    Yeah grahm we sure do. The lanterns pictured in grafton street our our design along with the garda lanterns and the castle lanterns which can be seen in the courtyard of Dublin castle.

  • #755657

    GrahamH
    Participant

    So you’ve been doing it for some time then I presume considering some of those mentioned date from the late 80s?
    Do you work for DCC Public Lighting Division or are you contracted out can I ask?

    I’m a big fan of your Castle lanterns – these I presume are the copper lamps mounted on older standards in the Upper Yard?
    What do you think about constantly replicating Dublin’s trademark silver column in so many places round the city?
    (sorry about the twenty questions :o)

  • #755658

    Plug
    Participant

    Thanks Thormond, there’s a “polls” section ???

    sorry, found it.

  • #755659

    Morlan
    Participant

    I love this lamp thread.

    When I was in Barcelona there a few weeks ago some of Gaudi’s hanging street lamps reminded me of the early 20th century lamps in Dublin.

    This one I snapped close to Gaudi’s La Pedrera.

    The architecture in Barcelona would make you sick. Notice its football like globe 🙂 This is a shot of a 3 globe lamp although, the globes are identical city-wide.

    I totally agree with you, Graham, about the level of detail in the Micheal Collins film. They certainly made an effort.

  • #755660

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Lovely stuff there. Excuse the ignorance, but did Gaudi design the furniture of his streets too?!
    It looks fabulous.

    I don’t get what the mesh is for either on those Barcelona posts, or on the 1892 Dublin ones below – it hardly protects them from anything does it?

    During the BBC Proms, aside from the irritating practice that it was, the video footage played over some of the pieces showed London in the 1890s with almost exactly the same posts as those above.
    You see them in archive footage from all over Europe from the time.

  • #755661

    Morlan
    Participant

    Yes. After he graduated from college his first commission was to design and build the street lamps you see in Barcelona today. It’s possible that it’s some sort of shatter proofing wire.. just a thought.

  • #755662

    Devin
    Participant

    Some great lamps in Barcelona….here’s another just for pig (cast) iron:

  • #755663

    Morlan
    Participant

    Graham, hope you don’t mind that I stray off from Dublin for a bit. I couldn’t resist posting up some of my other lamp shots. 🙂 I’m sure you’ll like them.

    Gaudi’s first ever municipal commision. The fabulous lanterns in Plaça Reial.

    Look at those evil heads. These are the lamps outside Government Buildings in Plaça Sant Jaume.

    You call that a lamp? This is a lamp! Have you ever seen anything like it?

  • #755664

    GrahamH
    Participant

    😀

    Yikes! Drool or what! 🙂

    Beautiful images, particularly the second one – what lovely detailing.
    Those lamps are interesting outside Govt Buildings there in that they are but a set of many such lamps around the world’s capitals that have been specifically designed for public spaces, or to tie in with municipal/government buildings.
    Right across Europe and seemingly South America you see them a lot – or in the US the lamps outside the Capitol spring to mind.
    Or the Mall & Palace in London, or outside the Parliament Building in Vienna etc etc.

    Unfortunately a practice that never developed in Ireland 🙁

  • #755665

    Morlan
    Participant

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    😀

    Yikes! Drool or what! 🙂

    Indeed! 🙂

    These lamps below are standard all around the city but they vary slightly depending on where you are.
    These ones below are outside the government buildings. They are well looked after, in fact most of them look brand new. They are adorned with the city’s coat of arms (vertical stripes for Catalonia) topped with the King’s crown.

    Here is a different version of the lamp. Oddly, some of the crown prongs the lamps appear warped and bent. I don’t know if this is weathering or perhaps Gaudi gave them his organic treatment. 🙂 I really don’t think these are his lamps though.

    This Chinese lamp belongs to the former umbrella shop on La Rambla. I can’t find much info on it unfortunately but the shop owner was obviously not short of cash at the time.
    Look at his fierce fangs and fiery beard, his sharp claws gripping the bamboo. The crafting on the bamboo is spectacular also.

    Anyway, that’s me all out of Barcelona lamps!

  • #755666

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Gah – out with you! –>

    🙂

    Very striking images there Morlan – you captured the first 3-arm one just at the right time with that shaft of sunlight creeping in! What a fine collection of lamps they have.
    If only we had ones like them, or these, in Dublin:

    oh wait…

  • #755667

    Devin
    Participant

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    1870s
    To start, these small gas-powered column lanterns were used to light O&#8217]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/1870s.jpg[/IMG]

    Close up:

    Among the other places where the 1870s lamps appeared were on the two arched-back bridges flanking the Four Courts: O’Donovan Rossa Bridge (seen here circa 1900) and Father Mathew Bridge.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    In the early years of the 20th century, the single heads were replaced with these great looking double heads, seen here on Father Mathew Bridge in the 1950s….

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    ….and here on O’Donovan Rossa Bridge in 1922.
    The two bridges at the Four Courts seem to have been the only place in the city that these particular double heads were used (special treatment for the special building).

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    [align=center:d01z33u2][/align:d01z33u2]

    But, being the great pioneers in conservation of the historic urban environment that we are, what do we do with these lovely lamps? Yes, we remove them (in about 1970) and put them (one of them) in the city lamp “museum” in the park in Merrion Square, to complement the “fussy municipal flower beds” and “tree plantings commemorating minor dignitaries” 😀 as planner Fergal McCabe so aptly put it recently.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    . .

    And finally, a comparison of the 1950s picture with the same view today. The corner building in the ’50s pic was demolished in 1983 to create a slip lane for traffic turning left from Bridge Street onto the Quays :rolleyes: , destroying the enclosure of the bridge.

  • #755668

    Morlan
    Participant

    Good finds there, Devin. Look at how uncluttered and clean the city looked back then 🙁

  • #755669

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Indeed – must take a closer look at the Merrion lamps. Most of them seem to be ‘novelty’ lamps from the period from parks and promenades etc, with very few used on the city streets, so it’s great to see the double-header in real life!
    There definitely ought to be a little plaque of info regarding each lamp in the Park.
    The fact that it probably wouldn’t be possible to do this because no one knows where most of them came from is indicative of the piece-meal tokenistic nature of their placing here – any old lamp from any old place popped in any old corner.

    The proportions of those converted double-headers are just ridiculous (!), but were fantastic pieces of street history 🙁
    (dare I say they’re frighteningly similar to 80s shopping centre lighting 🙂 – the Frascati Centre springs to mind 😮 )
    The little bulbs/glass cases of the lamps are particularly interesting.

    Miniature lamps ought to be reinstalled on these bridges, in character with their historic scale; there’s nothing worse than full size streetlights poking up from old bridges.
    Had to laugh at the Michael Collins film at the way that all they could do was paint the crude unfinished modern posts a dark green on O’Donovan Rossa 🙂
    Should have left them that colour…

  • #755670

    Devin
    Participant

    There are some taller street ones in there as well – ones that should never have been removed. The whole concept is so dodgy, isn’t it? – to paraphrase Joni Mitchell “we take all the lamps and put ‘em in a lamp museum, then charge all the people a dollar and a half just to see ‘em”! (well not quite). The surviving genuine historic street lamp standards in the city have basically been reduced to two types; the silver ‘feminine’ shamrock heads & the ‘masculine’ stout bases, with a few stragglers like some swan necks in the north & south inner suburbs, and a few shorter posts there as well.

    By ridiculous do you mean the head being too big for the post Graham? Yeah they were a small post but I think they looked great on the bridge with the double heads! True, full size ones on the bridges would be so wrong – except in the case of some of the larger bridges (e.g. the cool-looking black modern lamps on Grattan Bridge).

    For the last 20 years at least, the mock-Victorian gaslamp has been a staple of suburban shopping centre landscaping, regional town regeneration, dickieing-up of villages etc etc. (smug, smug, smug… 😀 )

  • #755671

    GrahamH
    Participant

    🙂

    Yes the double head is way too big for the post, and the large pedestal base ends up consuming half of the shaft!
    But lovely pieces, and their miniature proportions were just perfect for the bridges.
    To be honest I’m not sure about the black Grattan Bridge posts either – they look great in themselves but think they still look a bit daft sticking up in the middle of the river in the fashion they do.
    Surely the now-exceptionally bright seahorses are sufficient to light the bridge? (were the fridges not there of course).

  • #755672

    Devin
    Participant

    Have to say I thought that was an excellent piece of historic/modern street furniture juxtaposition; the minimalist black lamps being placed in front of (but not too close to) the ornate seahorse lamps. This was subsequently ruined on the east side when the fridges were put between the modern & old lamps…….more reason to remove the damn things!!!

  • #755673

    GrahamH
    Participant

    There’s an interesting related point to that, that you can’t as such put your finger on when crossing the bridge, but it’s the fact that the kiosks block you views as you cross the river, whether it be in a car or on foot; there’s no real sense of crossing the Liffey from one side to the other, the very point that the O’Connell Street IAP highlights about O’Connell Bridge, the very point – and yet the CC seek to ignore this issue that is pointed out in one of their own documents in the case of Grattan Bridge.

    Very much so a case as Garethace has highlighted, of the CC putting the effort into ‘flagship’ projects but ignoring the fundamentals in the average space in the city. O’Connell is worthy as part of a grandiose scheme, but Grattan is not.

    In the ‘before’ pictures Devin posted previously , it is without doubt the broad flat expanse of Grattan Bridge that is of greatest appeal, with sweeping views of the quays on both sides, and the delightful seahorses framing the views whilst simultaenously marking the river crossing by marching along on both sides, acting as architectural and practical beacons on the river, both day and night, as all similar lamps do on most bridges around the world – Westminster Bridge being a grand example of such.

    The fridges have taken this away from the city, dividing it in two – the only bridge on the Liffey other than O’Connell that generated this effect 🙁

    As for the black posts – fully agreed about the juxtapositioning, it’s very successful. And the lamps are great in themselves (even if they’d remind you of larger versions of the Texaco forecourt model :)) – just I think they take away from the purpose of the seahorses, relegating them to a bit of frilly Victoriana in the side, when they ought to be dominant.
    To see them sticking up in the distance in the middle of the river is clumsy, and kinda smacks of ‘let our modren paraphernalia handle this one lads’ :rolleyes:

  • #755674

    GrahamH
    Participant

    1/9/2005

    Went to have a closer look at the Merrion posts to see if if any other posts are recognisable from the olden days, and I came across the one below. Nver looked at it closely before but interestingly it’s a much larger chunkier version of the c1903 posts that went up around the city centre (and that lined O’Cll St as seen before). I wonder why it is bigger than usual – maybe it stood in a prominent place, perhaps the one in front of O’Connell Mounument or at the junction of South Grafton St?

    Anyway, all was fine and interesting etc until I glanced upwards. Having seen the smashed lamp up there before I didn’t pay much attention until I walked around a bit more. Recognise anyone? 😡

    @morlan wrote:

  • #755675

    Devin
    Participant

    Yeah, it’s such a jumble isn’t it.. We’ll stick this bit here & we’ll stick that bit there…..that park encapsulates “Pat Liddy Dublin” for me.

  • #755676

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Had to laugh at how insulting Evelyn O’Rourke on the radio must have been to him during the week – introducing him as ‘Pat Liddy ah the Pillar’s gone, ah 1916, ah aul Dublin’s gone to pieces…’ etc 😀

    What’s annoying about the copper lamp is not what it’s attached to, but rather where it should still be – ON A CITY STREET!!!
    Still, more importantly again, does its presence here suggest that all the concretes are still in storage somewhere?!

  • #755677

    Devin
    Participant

    I’d say when the vast majority of them were taken up in the late ’70s they were dumped or destroyed, because very few cared about things like that then. But I’d really like to know what happened to the 2 or 3 that were inexcusably removed (from the last surviving group of them) just a couple of years ago on College Street – as noted by Phil – & replaced with heritage reproductions.

    Will stick this, one of the 6 remaining, here (pic has appeared before):

  • #755678

    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’d say that most of them ended up in landfill unfortunately; I’ve seen quite a few corporation iron posts put into driveways on large one-offs over the years. I’ve never seen one concrete post anywhere than in operation. I very much doubt many of them were even taken out of the ground intact which really is a pity.

  • #755679

    hutton
    Participant

    Was in Belfast yesteday, and i thought i would catch a snap of these for the record – standard lamps. Must say, I think their street seats (black metal grid style) are superior – more comfortable and perfectly functional. H

  • #755680

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Ah yes, ‘those’ lamps 😉
    Can’t say I’m a fan, and am sure they’re not exactly hot with astronomers either given their huge level of pollution!
    A classic British High Street staple.

    They featured very prominently in that Guinness Christmas ad with City Hall in shot didn’t they? (ooh how exciting, it’s only 12 weeks till that starts airing again :))

    Lovely palazzo style facade in the background in you picture hutton.

  • #755681

    Plug
    Participant

    If “Those lamps” are what I think they are, they have an internal baffle that reflects light down and brings upward light polution in line with reccomendations from the dark sky association.

    I’m sure there a shonky versions without the baffle, but setting aside the light polution factor, there are standards to be followed for light levels in pedestrian areas, and if, as a lighting designer you’re trying to adhere to these standards, the last thing you want is for all your light to be shooting upwards. So choosing the version with the baffle may be nore exspensive in the short term, but you need less fittings, therefore you’re more energy efficiant.

  • #755682

    Devin
    Participant

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Originally posted by Graham Hickey (as file)
    . . .

    We’ve established that the magnificent 1930s concrete Art Deco lamps which once lined (primarily) the main streets of what is now the O’Connell Street IAP area were removed wholesale in the late-’70s, except for a cluster around College Street / D’Olier Street, and, scandalously, that several more were removed within the last five years: the two seen on College Street outside the now Wesin Hotel in the top left picture, which were replaced with ‘heritage reproduction’ (the top right picture shows the heritage repros being put in) – a piece of official cultural vandalism – and two more on O’Connell Bridge, one of which is seen in the above picture (the other having been in the same position on the other side of the bridge).

    I think it is reasonable to suggest that the two on O’Connell Bridge that had survived up to this time had lost their context; they were just two leftovers at the south end of the bridge and did not relate to anything else in the vicinity. Given this, the obvious thing to do was to carefully lift and relocate them so as to consolidate the surviving cluster on College Street / D’Olier Street, where they looked so good next to the stone and brick buildings, NOT simply remove and/or destroy (?) them.

    What happened to these lamps removed in recent years? It’s our city – we have a right to know. If anyone in lighting (Plug? Eric Woods? or anyone else) knows or could find out what happened to them, or indeed the bulk removal of 25 yrs ago, it would be very helpful.

  • #755683

    Anonymous

    I recall seeing the lamp heads, three if not four, for sale at a stand in Mother Redcap’s “antique” market back in the early eighties. What surprisesd me was how large they were. The casings were copper, although somewhat tarnished,and the glass opaque and yellowish. Not the kind of thing that might have ended up in a bedsit (remember them?) off the South Circular Road. That crowd went for the smelly “fir ag obair” lights. As for the standards,alas, methinks they got ground up.

  • #755684

    GrahamH
    Participant

    That’s interesting lunasa, especially as the date ties in with the removal of the lamps from most of the city centre. Whatever about the standards, the lamps no doubt even then would’ve been quite desirable being of high quality copper, and somwhat quirky in appearance – suited to many commerical premises.

    When you think that at about 32 posts went up on O’Cll St – sure that’s 64 lamps alone! Add to that Westmoreland St, College Green and Dame St and you’re approaching 150!
    Where the heck did they all go?! The fact that a handful turned up in lunasa’s market perhaps suggests that a wholescale sell-off or disposal was not carried out by the Corporation….

    It is sadly ironic that when a lamp moves from the busiest streets in the country to its final ‘resting place’ away from danger, that it is only then it gets destroyed 🙁

    Looks like this one was cleaned up to its original state before re-erection in the park.
    It seems highly likely the standards were ground up alright – there’s no way 70+ of these could have been kept in storage 🙁

  • #755685

    urbanisto
    Participant

    I think the Globe Bar on S G Georges St have a couple of the lanterns

  • #755686

    phil
    Participant

    We’ve established that the magnificent 1930s concrete Art Deco lamps which once lined (primarily) the main streets of what is now the O’Connell Street IAP area were removed wholesale in the late-’70s, except for a cluster around College Street / D’Olier Street, and, scandalously, that several more were removed within the last five years: the two seen on College Street outside the now Wesin Hotel in the top left picture, which were replaced with ‘heritage reproduction’ (the top right picture shows the heritage repros being put in) – a piece of official cultural vandalism – and two more on O’Connell Bridge, one of which is seen in the above picture (the other having been in the same position on the other side of the bridge).

    I think it is reasonable to suggest that the two on O’Connell Bridge that had survived up to this time had lost their context; they were just two leftovers at the south end of the bridge and did not relate to anything else in the vicinity. Given this, the obvious thing to do was to carefully lift and relocate them so as to consolidate the surviving cluster on College Street / D’Olier Street, where they looked so good next to the stone and brick buildings, NOT simply remove and/or destroy (?) them.

    Recently I have noticed that the few remaining ones of these lamps are in poor repair. There is selophane wrapped around most of them, as the concrete is starting to crumble. These lamps are an authentic example of Dublin’s heritage, and it would be a pure scandal to loose them. Does anyone know exactly who to contact in Dublin City Council about them?

    In fairness to them it looks like there is plans to fix them at some stage, it just seems that the work needs to be done as a matter of urgency.

  • #755687

    urbanisto
    Participant

    The head of the public lighting department I guess. Be on the website. The heritage officer might also be a good person to get onside.

  • #755688

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes I was wondering what that selophane was about too; not sure if it’s protecting the concrete or just holding the electrial access doors in place. Probably the former given metal bands are the usual short-term solution to broken doors.

    Even in Morlan’s pic here you can see quite a bit of deterioration to the concrete, and only that that can be seen:

    They are definitely in need of work at this stage; given the unusual nature of their construction they don’t even receive a coat of paint over their lifetime. And goodness knows what structural state the lamps are in at this stage.

    Indeed just on the lamps, I came across one of these notorious 1930s pieces recently having passed it for years without realising what it was, as has probably everyone else: the lamp suspended from the ceiling of the entrance foyer to Trinity on College Green! How did that get there?!

    Also on streetlighting, an application of undercoat to a lamp on Talbot Street recently highlights just how good standards can look in a colour other than boring old black. Coloured streetlights can really help in creating an identity for certain streets and ought to be tried out more (though not with those hideous lanterns).

  • #755689

    Devin
    Participant

    The concrete lamps are certainly getting a fair oul’ innings on this thread (and rightly so!!).

    I’ve seen that wear Phil. The marks of buses and other vehicles grazing against them can be seen all over the lower parts of them. Well at least by talking about them in this thread we are hopefully drawing attention to their plight!

    How depressing if all the old removed ones have been ground as lunasa says! 🙁

    Here’s another ’90s view of one of the (scandalously recently) removed ones on College Street and its ‘heritage’ replacement (not to mention the building behind!).

  • #755690

    Simon Cornwell
    Participant

    As a street lighting historian and collector, I’ve found this thread particularly fascinating. Luckily I discovered this discussion before a short break in Dublin, so I was able to take several pictures of the examples in Merrion Square Park and pay my respect to the remaining concrete columns in the city.

    I’ve since reviewed various publications and books devoted to street lighting and discovered that the O’Connell installation (that being the concrete columns) was mentioned several times. Even Waldram, who was probably the most respected street lighting engineer and researcher in the 1930s through to the 1960s, mentioned them favourably in his cornerstone book of 1951.

    By road building standards, O’Connell Street is extremely wide. This causes problems with standard street lighting, which assumes a set road width (Normal street lighting lanterns are designed to cast light up and down the road’s axis). A custom built, or a novel approach, is required, and this is what the authorities set out to do in the late 1930s.

    Looking at the old pictures of O’Connell Street, it was first lit with gas, then arc lamp, and finally incandescent electric bulb. In 1938, this often-altered installation was deemed inadequate and Mr. F X Algar, who was the head of the Lighting Section of the Irish Electricity Board, was asked to design a replacement installation.

    His scheme was novel in many ways. Firstly, he specified concrete columns and brackets, which were only just being used for street lighting (the first columns in the UK being manufactured by Concrete Utilities and installed in Liverpool in 1932). The style of the bulky column, and the art-deco bracket, is an excellent example of these early concrete columns. Originally the surface would have been polished to a smooth finish, but the weathering of the last 60 years has reduced the surface back to the original, rough concrete mix.

    Secondly, the large copper and brass lanterns were fitted with specialised refractor rings, which directed the light flux out towards the centre of the street, rather than along the street’s axis. Therefore to create a uniformly illuminated road surface, the lanterns had to be clustered closer together than the normal spacing; hence the requirement for a double bracket, arranged in-line with the road’s axis.

    The lanterns were fitted with 1500W GLS lamps (which is a normal tungsten bulb). Additionally, the panes of the lantern were made of rimpled glass to diffuse the light and reduce glare from this intense point source.

    Each complete lighting unit weighed 2 tons.

    I’ve not been able to identify the manufacturers of either the columns or lanterns, but would suggest Concrete Utilities for the former, and perhaps BLEECO for the later.

    When erected and completed in 1938, it was regarded as the best street lighting system in Ireland. By 1951, it was still of suitable merit that Waldram was singing its praises, dedicating a section of his book to this particular scheme.

    Only subtle alterations were made during its lifetime. In 1963, the lanterns were converted to 700W high pressure mercury bulbs which gave off a more bluish-white light. Discharge lighting being far more effective than tungsten, it saved the Dublin authorities £10 per lantern per year, although there was a slight decrease in the installation’s efficiency. (This was due to the refractors being designed for the point source of a tungsten bulb and not the vertical linear source of a mercury discharge bulb).

    At some point in the mid 1960s, the lighting deemed inadequate along the centre of the carriageway, and post-top GEC lanterns were erected along the centre of the street to boost the lighting.

    The death knell occurred in 1972 when the entire installation was obsoleted. The lighting around the city had been upgraded to modern standards, and the 1930s technology of the main streets was looking very dim in comparison. Dublin’s lighting engineers visited Edinburgh to view the new wall-mounted lighting on Princess Street, and influenced by its clean, uncluttered design, decided on a similar, sterile design for O’Connell street. So the O’Connell concrete columns were ripped up in 1972, replaced by wall mounted GEC lanterns which burned pairs of high-pressure sodium lanterns.

    In general, the early designed concrete columns and brackets have survived the longest, largely down to their sheer bulk, quality manufacturing and careful installation. By the 1940s and 1950s, spinning and prestressing of concrete columns allowed the manufacturers to build slender and thin columns. Coupled with sloppy installation by local authorities who skimped on sealing joints, many columns and brackets now show signs of water ingress i.e. cracking, spalling, and in some cases, collapse.

    For this reason, concrete column manufacture for street lighting ceased in the early 1990s, and local authorities in the UK are currently embarking on schemes to remove as many of them as quickly as possible.

    So, it’s a small miracle that some of the old 1938 Dublin columns still exist!

    Unfortunately, it looks like the remaining brackets are succumbing to cracking and spalling. This would account for the sellophane wrapped around some of the brackets and columns; they’re literally starting to fall apart. This does not bode well, as I don’t know of any concrete column which has been repaired. I expect they’ll be declared dangerous and eventually removed.

    A trip to the park was illuminating (ha!) because it revealed part of Dublin’s street lighting heritage. Many of the brackets and lanterns in the park were manufactured in the 1930s through to the 1950s by British Thompson Houston (BTH) and the Brighton Lighting And Electrical Engineering Company (BLEECO). I’ve taken several pictures of the street lights and and identified several examples on my website:
    http://www.simoncornwell.com/lighting/install/dublin1/index.htm

    I hope the above was of interest!

    All the best,
    Simon Cornwell
    http://www.simoncornwell.com/lighting

  • #755691

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    Great information there. All very interesting.

  • #755692

    phil
    Participant

    Yes, thank you very much for that. It is very interesting to know something about the history of those lights.

  • #755693

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Brilliant stuff Simon – thank you for that information.

    So is it likely they were made in the UK? And what caused the shift to the use of concrete in the 1930s do you know?

    I’d often wondered about those refractor rings you mention inside the lamps…

    …can you explain what you said about directing the light out into the street a little more? Do you mean it directed the light out in all directions in a 360 degree manner, or just specifically out to the roadway?
    Certainly the appeal of these lamps for me has always been the multi-directional light emitted – very efficient.

    And now that you mention the bluey-white light bulbs installed in the 60s, I vaguely recall some of the fittings on D’Olier St as late as about 1990 still having such bulbs still intact! They looked so much better.
    Thanks again for all your fascinating information!

  • #755694

    Devin
    Participant

    Yeah thanks from me too, Simon.

    I am fascinated now as to what the original column finish would’ve looked like “polished” and “smooth” as you say, now that they are down to the rough mix, as seen in the picture below (a crop from a pic I posted earlier).

    It’s amazing that most or all of the original mottled or “rimpled” (a new word for me!) glass seems to survive in the few remaining Dublin lamps.

    There are examples on odd streets here and there around Dublin of the slightly later, more slender colums you refer to (but still having an art deco element to their design). I will try’n get some pictures.

  • #755695

    Andrew Duffy
    Participant

    There is a single armed concrete lamp surviving on Baggot St. Bridge; all the others on Baggot St. seem to have had the arms replaced with metal ones. There are a few simpler single armed ones along South Richmond St, as well.

  • #755696

    phil
    Participant

    There are also a few single armed ones along the canal between Baggot Street and Leeson Street (City Centre side). There is also a few smaller examples with metal tops on Dartmouth Square and a few fully intact ones in the streets off London Bridge Road near Ringsend and Sandymount.

  • #755697

    Simon Cornwell
    Participant
    Andrew Duffy wrote:
    There is a single armed concrete lamp surviving on Baggot St. Bridge]

    Replacing the concrete bracket with a new metal bracket which fits over the stump of the concrete column is called “sleeving”. In some cases, it’s done to extend the life of the column, and replace a spalling concrete bracket which may have become dangerous. In other cases, a lantern replacement or upgrade may require a shorter arm, so a sleeve is used.

    All the best,
    Simon
    http://www.simoncornwell.com/lighting

  • #755698

    Simon Cornwell
    Participant

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    Brilliant stuff Simon – thank you for that information.

    No problems. Glad it was of interest.

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    So is it likely they were made in the UK? And what caused the shift to the use of concrete in the 1930s do you know?

    Previous to the 1938 installation, I expect all of Dublin’s cast iron columns and brackets were cast and produced by local foundries. The old gas lanterns were probably produced by local firms as well, although specialist gas lantern manufacturers were appearing by the mid 1850s.

    The idea of using concrete for columns probably originated from the USA, where the first concrete street lighting columns appeared in the 1900s. Concrete was touted as a solution to all the problems with cast iron and/or steel: it didn’t rust, it didn’t require maintenance (i.e. a costly and timely repainting rota) and it has double the life of an iron or steel column.

    It’s acceptance was slow, probably due to the columns and brackets being bulky. But with the steel shortages of the 1940s and 1950s, concrete was used more and more frequently.

    Dublin was certainly a very early adopter of concrete. In 1938, there would’ve only been a handful of manufuacturers who could’ve made them: take your pick from Concrete Utilities (who definitely produced lots of special designs for particular towns and cities), Stanton and/or REVO. I might be able to identify the manufacturer from the door at the base of the column, as many used their own locking mechanisms. If someone could photograph the door on one of the remaining Dublin columns then I’ll try and identify the maker.

    (I saw some other concrete columns in Dublin and noted they were by Concrete Utilities and Stanton. So, again, a mixture of suppliers was used over time).

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    I’d often wondered about those refractor rings you mention inside the lamps…

    …can you explain what you said about directing the light out into the street a little more? Do you mean it directed the light out in all directions in a 360 degree manner, or just specifically out to the roadway?
    Certainly the appeal of these lamps for me has always been the multi-directional light emitted – very efficient.

    By suspending a bare light over the road, you’d achieve a circular distribution of light around the column. In some cases, this was desired, and bare bulbs with little or no optical control were used. There’s some examples of those in the park, the BTH Parish lanterns being cases in point, having just a spun steel enameled over reflector to reflect light above the lamp back down onto the road.

    But the idea of street lighting is to uniformally light the entire street surface so that any obstacles (such as cars, pedestrians etc.) would be shown in high constrast. (A principle called silhouette lighting, which started to gain ground in the 1910s and 1920s). Therefore lanterns were designed to cast their flux up-and-down the road’s axis, and by positioning the columns correctly, the whole road could be evenly illuminated.

    Diagrams of the principle is shown here:
    http://www.simoncornwell.com/lighting/manufact/esla/cat/cat1930s-1/intro.htm

    This was achieved in practise by using mirrored lanterns or glass refractors. See the bottom two diagrams on this page:
    http://www.simoncornwell.com/lighting/manufact/bleeco/cat/cat1934-1/5.htm

    The two plan candle-power distribution curves show how the light is directed by the refractor ring. If lanterns were strung across the centre of the carriageway, then the 180 degree refractor ring would be used]www.simoncornwell.com/lighting[/url]

  • #755699

    GrahamH
    Participant

    It does – thanks 🙂
    Indeed even on the refractor in image above you can see a variation in the ripples of the glass – don’t know if that accounts for anything.

    Yes Stanton made quite a few Dublin posts; you see them a lot around the south inner city and suburbs. On a broader level in fact you don’t get that many concretes on the Northside, perhaps reflective of the general lack of investment that part of the city got at the time.

    As strange as it may seem at first it’s really not surprising that the 1938 posts were of a smooth glossy surface originally – if you look at many of the 1950s posts around the city, many of them still retain an element of that orginal finish, although even then it does seem that a higher grade of concrete was used in these later posts; many are in remarkably good condition on the face of it anyway.

    As for the doors Simon, I could be wrong but it would appear that the 1938s have replacement doors today – nasty unfinished steel yokes. Saying that, it’s possible they are the orginals – would they have been painted to begin with?

    Now that you describe them as arc lamps, it is instantly apparent why the 1892 set were so short-lived!

    They must have been a nightmare to maintain! And how antiquated too by the 1900s.

    Here’s a typical arc lamp from the period with the rods clearly exposed – you can see the striking similarity to those in Dublin city centre, and indeed as were installed right across Europe:

    http://edison.rutgers.edu/latimer/arclmp2.htm

  • #755700

    Devin
    Participant

    There was a big foundry at Hammond Lane, in the Docklands – a lot of the Dublin lamps were produced there as far as I know.

  • #755701

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yep – all of the Merrion Street columns were made here – you can just make it out on the ribbon detail at the base on the left:

    Similarly many of the small posts on Grafton Street and/or St. Stephen’s Green were made there.

  • #755702

    Simon Cornwell
    Participant

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    It does – thanks 🙂
    Indeed even on the refractor in image above you can see a variation in the ripples of the glass – don’t know if that accounts for anything.

    Yes, the refractor won’t have a uniform pattern, and you can clearly see where the grooves are different on the glass to change, or concentrate the beam. Additionally the refractor can only fit into the lantern one way, and the lantern itself will have “Road Side” and “Path Side” written on it. This stops errant street lighting engineers screwing on the lanterns the wrong way, and causing the main beam to be shone straight through someone’s window. (In theory).

    @graham Hickey wrote:

    As for the doors Simon, I could be wrong but it would appear
    that the 1938s have replacement doors today – nasty unfinished
    steel yokes. Saying that, it’s possible they are the orginals – would
    they have been painted to begin with?

    They won’t have been painted, and will look like a thin piece of slightly rusty metal. Additionally you might be lucky and find the maker’s name or initails in the concrete around the base.

    >Now that you describe them as arc lamps, it is instantly
    >apparent why the 1892 set were so short-lived!
    Now, they’re classic arc lamps 🙂

    The canopies are extremely tall to house both the clockwork gear and extremely long carbons. As the arc burnt away the carbon, the clockwork would gradually move the carbon down, keeping the arc going. In practise, they probably needed some maintenance every day. I’m sure the street lighting engineers loved them. 🙂

    Looking at some of the other pictures in this thread, I’m at a loss over the 1920-23 street light. The long canopy is definitely a characteristic of the 1920s, but the bowl and the weird appendage below it are most odd. It reminds me of “dim out” lighting in London, installed in the early 1940s, to provide very low lighting during the Blitz. So I’m confused as to why a similar looking lantern appeared in Dublin twenty years previously.

    All the best,
    Simon

  • #755703

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes, that’s precisely what I thought too, and was going along with that theory until a few pre-War photographs blew it out of the water! 🙁
    I can’t find them just at the miniute – must have a better look.

    The one thing to bear in mind is that, as you probably know, the Irish Civil War reduced much of Upper O’Connell Street to rubble in 1922. Considering that the lampposts of that time had even managed to survive the much greater devastation of 1916, allbeit with a few likely smashed lamps, the opportunity was probably taken in 1923 to replenish all of the city centre lamps considering many were probably replaced in a piecemeal fashion following both events. Hence the rather spooky looking electric lamps that were attached which can be seen swinging in the wind on O’Connell Bridge in some footage!
    My theory anyway. Though what the heck sort of lamps they are goodness only knows…

  • #755704

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Discovered some fascinating information today on foot of Simon’s suggestions. I checked the bases of all six remaining 1938 columns and sadly, but incredibly luckily, all but one remains intact. Four of them have nasty metal plates clamped onto them as mentioned before:

    …while two original doors remain but only one fully intact – crucially with a fantastically comprehensive maker’s stamp and address still in place at the bottom! It would appear that these columns were rather exotically made on the Continent!

    Here you can see one of the two remaining doors, this damaged with part of the plate missing to the bottom, but nonetheless look how wonderfully neat and well made these doors are – a seamless design, beautifully made:

    And the all important maker’s stamp on the single intact door: Sofrapel of Paris!

    To this day the company appear to be engaged in concrete formulation and experimentation from what I can make out on the internet – fascinating stuff. So not British at all! (?)
    It seems the columns were cast in France and shipped over – what a cargo! I wonder if the lamps are Irish-made…

    The more you look at the concrete, the more it seems it was always this rough. I find it hard to imagine that this aggregate compound was originally much smoother that what we have today – it has hardly weathered so much in 70 years.

    The mix is so coarse, and the ‘stones’ so large, that it seems it was always like this; the posts are very early concrete examples after all.

    Sadly, on close inspection there is little doubt these posts are on their last legs – unfortunately they’re going to have to be uprooted, at the very least for huge restoration if not total replacement. To be frank, they look dangerous.
    The most shocking example of damage on D’Olier Street:

    College Street – there’s cracking the whole way down the picture:

    And goodness only knows what’s wrapped up inside this:

    The post across the road has similar bandaging in two places along its shaft, and other posts’ arms don’t look overly secure where they attach to the column.

    It really is such a shame to see them all in this state – cracking concrete, severe erosion, whole chunks of shafts gouged out, rusting steels, dirty lamps, missing glass, horrid plastic and metal ties wrapped round bases, and hideous lumps of metal being passed off as replacement doors. What a disaster.

    The columns must be removed immediately for their own good. They ought to be fully restored if this is technically possible. If not, perhaps replacement parts such as shafts or lamp arms could be recast, again if possible. The notion of full replicas rings a bit hollow, but there’s certainly no reason why the original lamps could not be used in such a case.

    Either way something has to be done, and quickly. Presumably a structural survey has already been conducted on all of them in the interest of public safety…?

    They’re such a part of the character of central Dublin – it would be a shame to lose them 🙁

  • #755705

    Devin
    Participant

    En Route to An Trá in the heat last week, I noticed a new historic-style cast iron lamp scheme has been installed along the Clontarf seafront (the one where, bizarrely, you are not allowed to cycle). As a historic style, the design of the lamp is actually quite good and it appears to be well cast.

    However it is quite a full-blooded Victorian design, and I’m not sure if it was the right thing to put here, beside the various concrete shelters along the seafront, all of which are strongly of 20th century ‘international style’ in design (see pictures).

    I’m not saying it was the wrong thing to do, but there should have been some consultation for something like this, to see what kind of a consensus there would be about the design of a new lamp scheme in this location. I don’t remember hearing a thing about it ….
    .

  • #755706

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Its good to see this lighting scheme finally installed. It has been on the cards for a number of years now. A managment plan was drawn up for the Clontarf Promenade and I think other elements such as improved planting are also planned. The lighting scheme is the same as that installed at Sandymount, no? They are quite attractive lights although I can see your point Devin about the contrast between the lamps design and the shelters. Some attention to the pockmarked wall would be welcome as well. This must have had a railings along its length at some stage,

    And you can actually cycle on a dedicated cycle path here…al

  • #755707

    DGF
    Participant

    It looks like a new lighting scheme is going up through Phibsboro too, around the junction with the NCR. Don’t have photos but the light fittings are a very peculiar wide cone shape mounted on very high poles. Battleship grey in colour. Haven’t seen anything else like them in the city and don’t find them particularly attractive. The old poles and lights are still in place too so its a bit of a mess at the moment.

  • #755708

    CM00
    Participant

    The last bastion of our concrete bretheren:

    In and around Suburban Harold’s Cross, these Concrete lamposts survive relatively intact..

    As a matter of interest,They’re being gradually removed from The Grand Canal between Baggot/Leeson st, also between the Bleeding Horse and Portobello, where evidence of Cracking similar to Graham’s shots is also visible.

    Oh yeah and Graham, that was really lucky finding the intact concrete door 🙂 , ALL of the ones I came across had been crudely replaced with said metal plates.

  • #755709

    CM00
    Participant

    In the winter light, A scaled down sentry guards a lonely street in Rathmines.

  • #755710

    CM00
    Participant

    I absolutely LOVE these ones, they’re very elegant and chic, hopefully these will never go the way of the concrete. I think they speak classic, turn of the century Dublin as much as the next (lamp)post. This one is on Harrington St, just by portobello there.

  • #755711

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Could not agree with you more – amongst the finest lampposts in the city, they’re one of my favourites too 🙂
    Early electric, though maybe a bit later than most at 1910-20 (?), they can be found along many of the major arterial routes of the north and south inner suburbs, Harrington Street being a classic example.

    They’re so wonderfully elegant: slim profile, streamlined components, and attractive detailing: they unobtrusively fit into any streetscape. And strangely, the later ugly sodium lamps kinda add to their thin profile! Love to know what the original ones were like though.

    But yes it would seem DCC are actively going about cleansing the capital of concrete posts – as mentioned all of Richmond Street was being wiped of them a few months ago and being replaced with the usual tacky silver repro rubbish. (Had a pic but seems to have gone missing). The fact that the Lighting Division can’t even be arsed to come up with decent replacements speaks volumes as to their attitude to the city’s lighting stock. It’s unfortunate to have to say it, but really much of the city’s 20thC lighting is in grave danger of disappearing if not watched closely – it might as well be 1973 in terms of what’s going on, and that extends to ‘modern’ standards going in which are so often the usual skinny repro trash, or simply galvanised motorway stock. There seems to be no grand plan or coordinated approach, particularly as the the future of concrete – this should have been researched and sorted years ago! And yet only now when the city’s stock is crumbling away are they finally being investigated, and even then many are simply being replaced before any chance is made to assess them!
    The curved c.1950 ones pictured above by CM00 are an integral part of Dublin’s subrbs and are very much worthy of conservation.

    Agreed about the new posts in Phibsboro too DFG – not very attractive at all either, though saying that the new black posts going in on the East Wall Road beside the Point and Dublin Port entrance are quite striking if anyone has a pic.

    The new posts at Clontarf seem to be identical to the black posts erected a few years ago in Sandymount as Stephen says:

    They do look rather odd alright beside the modernist shelters and wall (lovely things btw), but certainly are suited to the Sandymount Strand Road setting (above) anyway with the Victorian villas opposite – don’t know Clontarf very well.

  • #755712

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Just remembered this – Trinity’s carriage arch (;)) lamp. As mentioned before, it is one of the 1930s concrete lamps!

    (albeit cleaned up)

    Now how did they get hold of it?! 😡

    Anyone have a picture of an older lamp here to give us an indication of when they installed it?

  • #755713

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Small pillar-style street lamps are very rare in Dublin, espcially given their proliferation across post-war housing developments in the UK. They’re rarer still with their original heads, as with these charming little posts some people probably know along the canal at Charlemont Place to the bottom of Harcourt Terrace (across the canal from Grand Parade).

    They’re well proportioned in design and relative to location, and the brown concrete is perfectly suited to the wooded surroundings of the canal.

    Alas out of the three or so posts here, at least one has already had its head replaced. It’s a shame as they’re rare miniature versions of one of the larger suburban designs:

    It’s interesting to note the different concretes between pillar and head, the former seemingly of the earlier coarser aggregate – perhaps suggesting a 1940s head connected to a 1930s post that had been in storage? Harcourt Terrace Garda Station right beside them was built in 1944.

    They’re also suffering from cracking though (again an indication of an earlier lesser quality post?) – here it’s apperently being held together with gaffer tape!

    Also a nice little township electric base still standing at the bottom of Leeson Park:

    Luckily there’s lots of these full-scale 1904ish posts still in use.

    More poured concrete footpaths too…
    Nice touch around the base at least.

  • #755714

    urbanisto
    Participant

    I spent a few days in Berlin last month and took the opportunity to visit Karl Marx Allee which was basically the GDRs showcase street to rival the Ku’damm in West Berlin. Its a very impressive show of the Soviet wedding-cake style architecture and quite attractive, while at the same time being monumentalist and monolithic. Anyhow, the street is lines with four rows of very attractive lamp standards after the fashion of our iconic city centre standards. Lovely pieces: two copper lanterns, same concrete and a small bank of tiling at the base to set off the lamp. Sadly many of them are irretrievably damaged and no effort seems to have been made to to restore and retain these lovely lamps. The Berlin government is broke and Karl Marx Allee seems to suffer from it associations with the former communist state (theres lots of anti-communist graffiti and vadalism about).

    Some images of the lamps

    Anyhow, Karl Marx Allee is well worth checking out if you get a chance.

  • #755715

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Lovely things, they look like they’re carved from timber!

    Just on the matter of the c.1903 swan neck posts erected in Dublin city centre, I hadn’t realised until looking very closely that these posts are the same posts as used for the 1892 arc-lamps as shown below – they were simply re-headed with new lamps on top!

    Hence their rather cumbersome top-heavy character.

    The only ones to survive in the city today are a handful of posts on Harcourt Street, mixed in amongst later early electrics and repros.

    So because the arc lamps lined all the principal streets, so too did the replacement swan necks – from Henry Street…

    …to Grafton Street…

    …to the corner of the Green (with later attachment).

    (and ship building with steel windows).

    The Grafton Street picture is from around 1940, so the swan necks possibly survived as late as the early 60s. The only slight sticking point in all of this is that there’s a larger version of this post in the Merrion Square park, which possibly hints at a new set being made for the swan necks, but that’s hardly likely. It’s reasonable to assume that the old posts were pragmatically retained and simply re-headed c.1903. If this is the case, then the post on the top of Cork Hill mentioned in the paving thread astonishingly survives from 1892!

    @devin wrote:

  • #755716

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Its na bearbug of mine for a while now….take a walk through the city centre by night and keep your eyes open.

    Feature lighting….its become so common recently that most developments or improvements include an element of lighting. Spots, LEDs, trendy blue mini lights. Dublin’s bridges are a great example, the median and plaza on O’Connell Street, Docklands.

    Trouble is they take a bit of maintenance and thats never been a forte in this city. I think Millenium Brodge is a really good illustration. Most of the lighting is out of action. Ha’penny Bridge the same (needs a wash too).

    Whats to be done. Is this type of lighting just a waste of money?

  • #755717

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Spot on. Indeed such is the level of aesthetic/decorative/atmospheric lighting being installed in every public and private project going now, it’s getting to a stage where policy needs to be drafted to ensure that the integrity of these schemes is maintained after installation. Publically, there ought to be a commitment to doing this on the part of the Lighting Division, while for the private sector, a condition of planning applications should ensure that such schemes are to be maintained if permission is to be granted for them. In ACAs and SPACs it’s simpler still and should be enforced as a basic standard. Inevitably areas such as these also feature high profile buildings.

    In spite of constant developments in lighting technology and confident claims of extra long lives, lighting schemes remain as maintenance intensive as ever for issues that go beyond the lamp itself. Already the GPO scheme is showing the first signs of decay, with some units moving out of alignment, while countless LED uplighters on the median of O’Connell Street are either blown, smashed or an entire section taken out as a result of a dodgy fuse. The bridges are nothing short of a joke at this stage in terms of maintenance, while even high profile cases such as Government Buildings cannot even sustain basic upkeep. I cannot remember the last time its dome was illuminated as intended – indeed at all for that matter. As for the Fourt Courts and other key buildings – heck, even City Hall barely manages to keep itself together, with its haphazard pediment illumination a particular embarrassment. What standard do flagship cases such as these set for the private sector?! The government’s upcoming policy on architecture should incorporate objectives on lighting given its crtitcal role in essentially sustaining, and indeed adding a new dminsion to, good architecture after nightfall.

    Just as this thread is raised, it ought to be noted that the pair of 1930s concrete lampposts outside the former Irish Times terrace on D’Olier Street have just been taken out. What’s the likelihood of them being restored and reinstated? There are now four left in the entire city.

  • #755718

    phil
    Participant

    @grahamh wrote:

    Just as this thread is raised, it ought to be noted that the pair of 1930s concrete lampposts outside the former Irish Times terrace on D’Olier Street have just been taken out. What’s the likelihood of them being restored and reinstated? There are now four left in the entire city.

    I may be proven wrong (and I hope I am), but I would say that is them gone! This would be a real pity. Perhaps it is time to get in touch with the City Council again. It has been a few years since I last contacted them on this matter!:)

  • #755719

    urbanisto
    Participant

    IMO they dont really sit well along the street. I would rather see matching silver columns. The concrete ones should be moved and restore and used as part of a unified lighting scheme.

  • #755720

    phil
    Participant

    I am not sure street lighting necessarily needs to be uniform, but I see where you are coming from. I think certain features, if deemed important enough, should be retained in situ instead of being shifted around the place to suit contemporary tastes and fashions. Furthermore, it should not be forgotten that these were once the standard light for the city centre. The replacement of the examples outside The Westin removed the last trace of their impact in a group (Devin had before/after photos on this thread before I think).

    In the end, it all depends on whether or not people actually care enough about them I suppose. In my view they are important features of 20th Century street furniture, which should be retained where ever possible and in their original position, but that is just me.

  • #755721

    Anonymous

    Does anyone else think that the silver lamposts would look better painted black – or is it just me?

  • #755722

    missarchi
    Participant

    protected poles is where its at 🙂

    great thread worth the trawl

  • #755723

    johnglas
    Participant

    kinsella: agreed; how about dark green as a compromise?

  • #755724

    Anonymous
    Participant

    would tend to agree, dark green can look great, wouldn’t mind black too much either though.

    These were installed this year on Kenilworth Square East – pretty decent overall, quite like them.

    However, they replaced this fella – still in place on the west side of the square and a good number still around Dublin 6 in general.

    I understand there was a need to improve the lighting with taller standard lamps, but really they could have retained & refurbished the originals and moved them to the park side of the street where they would be well suited to pavement lighting for pedestrians (which is still fairly dark given the overhang of trees etc.)

    What happens to these old lamp standards when they’re removed !??

    Just on the concrete posts – Kenilworth Park through to Kenilworth Square & Kenilworth Road is the longest single stretch i know of where concrete lamposts still line the roadway, and on both sides for much of the route.

  • #755725

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Thanks for the pics Peter. I’d seen the new posts from the bus but couldn’t make out too much of the detail. They appear to be green versions of the Bull Alley/Iveagh Trust posts installed a few years ago off Patrick Street. Extremely nice and well detailed, but criminal if they are replacing historic posts, for which there is absolutely no justification. Do you remember if there were old posts along here Peter before these went in? Perhaps (hopefully) they replaced steel posts? Certainly I remember them on the other sides, as your picture proves.

    There so very few enclaves of these small historic posts left in Dublin. I sincerely hope it is not the intention to give them all this Tidy Towns treatment. Dare I even mention it for fear of generating publicity, but Mountpleasant Square in Ranelagh/Rathmines has probably the oldest posts in the entire city, with elegant simple fluted columns and Sesame Street-like curved bases. These were gas lamps, are exceptionally rare, and may date from as early as the late 1820s. If they so much as contemplate coming near these with their sanitised heritage poles…!

    And sadly the concretes on Kenilworth Road are already disappearing. I had a picture of a new galvanised steel pole going in beside a concrete post, but have lost it since. Also in Crumlin village, these distinctive – if gawky – classic suburban specimens are being replaced with more catalogue homogenity, more suited to La Rambla than a quaint village street. What a crying shame.

  • #755726

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @grahamh wrote:

    Do you remember if there were old posts along here Peter before these went in? Perhaps (hopefully) they replaced steel posts? Certainly I remember them on the other sides, as your picture proves.

    I’m certain Graham that the same posts on the west side of the square also lined the east & that these new ones were installed to replace them. It was actually an issue during the last election (not the preservation of the existing, but their replacement to improve lighting around the square. The ususal election blurb from Lucinda Creighton etc. indicated that they are also to be installed on the west side, i presume funding is now an issue.

    I’ll have a look again today to see if any remnants remain. I can’t understand why historic posts are removed, sure there was a need to improve lighting in this area but no need to remove the originals – as i mentioned earlier, they would have been perfect had they been used to illuminate the pavement on the park side, ideal height & scale for a pedestrian environment.

    @grahamh wrote:

    And sadly the concretes on Kenilworth Road are already disappearing. I had a picture of a new galvanised steel pole going in beside a concrete post, but have lost it since.

    I think the pole your thinking of is visible in the shot below – it was installed a year or two ago, i was hoping it might be for a traffic camera but its set too far back from the junction – thankfully nothing has happened since, just another random pole erected for no apparent reason, and as yet not others have been added on kenilworth road.

    I’ve noticed the new additions around Crumlin, again difficult to see the need, there is some merit in distinguishing the village environment from the rest of the area but this can be achieved by sensitive standard lamp type additions at pedestrian level, no need to replace unique historic posts that often defined an area with generic glavanised stuff that homogenises every urban area !!!

  • #755727

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @grahamh wrote:

    Extremely nice and well detailed, but criminal if they are replacing historic posts, for which there is absolutely no justification. Do you remember if there were old posts along here Peter before these went in? Perhaps (hopefully) they replaced steel posts?

    I had a look again today … just four historic posts line the east side of the square (intact), from memory a similar number lined the west side which would tally with the number of points on the west pavement where fresh cement has been laid to cover where the old posts once stood.

    I’m sure that both the new & old posts stood together for quite some time until the old ones were removed, virtual earth indicates as much too (though it is a stretch !)

    All of which again asks the question, why remove historic posts that define the character of areas & what happens to them when they are removed ?

  • #755728

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    @peter Fitz wrote:

    All of which again asks the question, why remove historic posts that define the character of areas & what happens to them when they are removed ?

    more candidates for the Merrion Square lighting musuem?

  • #755729

    missarchi
    Participant

    The shamrock poles all over Dublin got nominated for protected Structure listing today and the request form has been submitted to Dublin City Council.
    DCC have there work cut out fingers crossed…:o

  • #755730

    Smithfield Resi
    Participant

    The shamrock poles all over Dublin got nominated for protected Structure listing today and the request form has been submitted to Dublin City Council.
    DCC have there work cut out fingers crossed…

    I wonder will that stop them putting (commercial) ‘cultural’ advertising banners on them?

  • #755731

    Anonymous
    Participant

    I spotted one similar to this on the new nangor road dated 1912 that somehow managed to stay standing for the last 96 years and survive a few bouts of road widening and the addition of two bus lanes – its a full post, no arm though, i’ll get a pic when i get a chance. There’s another on the naas road between newlands and the red cow, impossible to catch a date though with everyone driving up your ass :rolleyes:

  • #755732

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Shame to lose this thread….

    I noticed the detailing on the new heritage lamp erected on the island at College Green as part of the recent bus gate “improvements”. It has the Dublin 1988 logo on it…its obviously a reused lampstandard from “prejuvenated” O’Connell Street. It probably suits the spot but could something have been done about the ugly industrial park lighting in front of Trinity and along Grafton Street as well?

  • #755733

    GrahamH
    Participant

    It’s simply baffling that over a million euro was spent on the Bus Gate project, with zero improvement – in fact resulting in a net disimprovement – in the aesthetics of the capital’s flagship civic space. No rationalisation whatever of lighting was conducted; not even the car park lighting outside Trinity, as Stephen mentions, being removed. Truly a monument to a lack of joined-up thinking.

    The new lamp standard on the median is now the third model of its type in the city, the other two being positioned at Cornmarket and the junction of Harcourt Street and Adelaide Road. As mentioned, these are recycled O’Connell Street median tripartite branches, sprayed crass Celtic Tiger silver, Sony Bravia style, with new lamps affixed atop. The lamps give off good light, but are too flimsy relative to the column bulk for the standard to be correctly proportioned (a problem also generated by the tight clustering of the arms), and to generate the gravitas demanded of a street standard. And of course it is completely random, so either way it jarrs unduly.

    Meanwhile, the famous seahorse standards guarding Grattan languish as ever with chipped paint, dirty glass lamps, and cumbersome domestic CFL globes competing with their decorative detailing during the day, and giving off a dull glow by night. Such a shame.

    Need it even be reiterated that College Green deserves so much more. Is there no pride in the Lighting Division at all? They don’t even seem to have a legacy of rose-tinted information pamphlets and exhibitions extolling their grand projects, past and present, so beloved of other local authority departments. Indeed, it took Derry O’Connell of An Taisce to write, publish and illustrate the definitive guide to the city’s historic lighting back in the 1980s. Now is the time, more than ever, to be reusing, recycling and showcasing this stock on the city’s streets!

  • #755734

    missarchi
    Participant

    The way Carlisle bridge is going its only going to get worse vents bus stop and less people crossing… new clear hikort option…

  • #755735

    lostexpectation
    Participant

    dublin south county council now has a mapped report a fault system for any of south dublins busybodies,

    http://connect.southdublin.ie/connect/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemid=249
    for reporting broken lights etc

  • #755736

    lostexpectation
    Participant

    can’t find the traffic poles thread

    Let’s count telegraph poles, says councillor
    http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/lets-count-telegraph-poles-says-councillor-1936124.html

    taxpayers money, that phrase

  • #755737

    lomo
    Participant

    This has been a great thread, I hope people are still interested.

    Dublin City Council make lofty claims about protection of architectural heritage, when evidently it did not occur to them that street furniture and in particular street lighting are a very important part of that remit. It has been confirmed to me that all of the 1930s lamp posts have been ‘thrown out’.

    The Merrion Square installation was done in the 1980s by a lighting technician from the Lighting Department, i.e., someone with zero conservation training, who took a passing interest.

    This is why you end up with the 30s lanterns on the 1903 brackets. This is why 30s lamps are removed from the streets because they don’t fit in with someone’s personal idea of ‘history’.

    I expect someone who makes decisions about the landscape of a European capital city to be trained in conservation or history.

    There is evidently no conservation officer working with the Lighting Division. I will be writing to the Heritage Office of Dublin City Council, advising them of my concern and disdain. Please do so too, if you care that your heritage is going to landfill. If people who care say nothing, the people who don’t care get away with everything.

    Please write to them!

    Dublin City Council
    Heritage Office
    Block 3, Floor 3
    Civic Offices
    Dublin 8

    Tel: (01) 222 3824
    Fax: (01) 222 2271
    Email: heritage@dublincity.ie

  • #755738

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    Straying a wee bit off topic,I`m keen to find out if DCC have some form of Blackout policy in force for Westmoreland Street…or is it an attempt to take the spotlight(!!) off the somewhat inapropriate siting of the Weekend Portaloo`s ….:rolleyes:

    The Black Hole of Calcutta must surely have been a brighter prospect that the College Green end of Westmoreland Street !! 😮

  • #755739

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    Graham – another view of those concrete posts on O’Connell Street – from the new Edwin Smith book

  • #755740

    Smithfield Resi
    Participant

    I spotted one of these (headless) 1912 bad boys today…amazed it has survived in this industrial location…and I had a nice chat with the relevant dept in South Dublin cc about a lick of paint…

    View Larger Map

  • #755741

    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve spotted that one myself Smithfield Resi … how it survived several bouts of road widening is beyond me, perhaps that says more about South Dublin County Council than anything else (the Nangor road was previously the main road from Dublin to Newcastle)…another from 1912 has survived on the median of the Naas road between the Red Cow & Newlands Cross.

  • #755742

    FXR
    Participant

    From The Antique Pavement by Derry O’Connell 1975

  • #755743

    FXR
    Participant

    From The Antique Pavement by Derry O’Connell 1975

  • #755744

    FXR
    Participant

    From The Antique Pavement by Derry O’Connell 1975

  • #755745

    FXR
    Participant

  • #755746

    FXR
    Participant

    From The Antique Pavement by Derry O’Connell 1975

  • #755747

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    A quick perambulation along a thoroughly blacked-out Westmoreland St last evening revealed only a single functioning Public Light fitting on the East-Side of the street.

    This shining beacon is tacked on to the facade of the,now empty,former EBS building.

    Of itself it`s a fairly brutal fitting as it certainly sits like a zit on the end of a nose,however it is at least working.

    The City Council policy for the remainder of that side appears to revolve around the Westin Hotel being good enough to put some candles in their windows as there are NO other public lighting fixtures in place.

    The West-Side fares somewhat better with at least two fittings functional,however their output is diminished considerably by the surrounding dense foilage.

    What a thoroughly depressing night-time vista this once rather splendind street now presents as it spurs citizens and visitors onto racing through it,lest they experience a mischief.

    All the LAP`s and assorted high-sounding plans programmes and intentions do not count for diddley-squat if the Civic Authority do not possess the simple damn interest to take a walk around their own City now and then….after dark that is 😡

  • #755748

    urbanisto
    Participant

    I see that the old art deco lampstands on D’Olier Street have been permanently removed and replaced with swan-neck replicas. The new lamps at least match the others on the street but I cant help wondering where the old lampstands have ended up. The “new” lamps have been expertly installed….in lumps of tarmac, however I presume this is because a repaving of this section of the street is being considered in the near future.

  • #755749

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    It’s now reached the stage where I’m actively considering petioning Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II of our nearest neighbours,to see if She may take the Westmoreland St Blackout case on.

    I suspect that Dublin City Council’s Public Lighting Section may be fearful of breaching the blackout regulations and allowing the Street to become a target for Boche Bombers or such fiendish types.

    I drop in here on an irregular basis,but I retain the hope that someday I shall be able to post a “First Cuckoo of Spring” message and refer in glowing terms to the City Councils recruitment of a Lamplighter and a supply of rushes which could be placed in some framework,perhaps attached to the Portaloos to allow the peasantry to see where to pee,so to speak.

    Westmoreland St,up to last week remains in a sea of deep darkness once the Westin turn off their own lights.
    Not only is it a depressing sight,but equally it is a Dangerous one,particularly for pedestrians attempting to cross it`s splendid wide aspect.

    Incredibly,there are lamp units (albeit horrible but functional industrial units) affixed to frontages but which have not been functional for years,yes YEARS.

    With 2016 rapidly approaching,I’m wondering if the street was better lit a century ago than it is today ?

    I listen on a regular basis to impressively titled Public Representatives and the likes telling us all about the Knowledge Based Economy and our incredible potential to be innovative and attract Googles,Facebooks,and EBays to our City……perhaps the last-named one might be a source of cheap, working,light-units which some passing African Missionaries might endevour to connect up for us in our hour/century of need. :crazy:

  • #755750

    aj
    Participant

    brilliant work Alex

    DCC are currently too busy beavering away on the Village Design Statement for Sandymount (Apparently the benches are too clincial and planters too plastic.. quote unquote) to be worried about anything as irrelevant as lighting , cleaning or general maintence in the city centre.

  • #755751

    Cathal Dunne
    Participant

    @Alek Smart wrote:

    I listen on a regular basis to impressively titled Public Representatives and the likes telling us all about the Knowledge Based Economy and our incredible potential to be innovative and attract Googles,Facebooks,and EBays to our City……perhaps the last-named one might be a source of cheap, working,light-units which some passing African Missionaries might endevour to connect up for us in our hour/century of need. :crazy:

    Exactly, we get caught up with creating the internet capital of Europe here in Dublin but can miss out on the basics. I’d love to have a budget of about a €100 million to go round fixing up the footpaths, sorting out streetlighting, cleaning up facades, repainting road markings and removing unnecessary poles. Simple minor works like this would dramatically improve the urban fabric of Dublin and make it a much more livable and attractive place.

    The recession is having a terrible impact on the quality of street lighting and the like here in Dublin. Cheap and garish are the order of the day and Dublin City Council barely lifts a finger to do anything about it.

  • #755752

    engstu
    Participant

    Saw this http://pix.ie/bohoe/2313362/size/800 on Twitter, apparently only happened this morning – presumably one less old street light in Dublin.

  • #755753

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    I note that following their Britannic Majesties departure from our shores Westmoreland Street continues to remain in Stephen Hawking mode…It appears Dublin City Council,the City Manager and in particular the Public Lighting Manager are lifelong fans of the Black-Hole theory….I’d appreciate it somewhat more if they subscribed to the Big-Bang theory instead.

    And just to underline the cack-handedness of what purports to be a modern EU Capital City’ s Admintration,the wholesale deforestation of College Green for Mr Barrack H Obama’s speech from the dock,has resulted in the Westmoreland St syndrome spreading to College Green…yes folks stygian blackness from Grafton St to Church lane……mind you it could also be a cunning plan to force the BoI to surrender their Portico at a bit of an oul haircut….I’m all in favour of inviting Fidel Castro to speak next…..I can’t see him making things any worse than this gang of twittery larks have managed to do….Is it any wonder the country is fc’uk`d

  • #755754

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Still driving you mad Alek? I am sure you’ve written all those emails and letters and been told its all in hand. The wildly optimistic corner of my mind hopes that since Sierra…sorry DCC are taking so long to put back the lamps on College Green that perhaps we are to see a step up in civic design at this location.

    Meanwhile Roads are on the march again. After the astonishing mess that was made of Parnell Square West (cultural hub of north city) the team turn their attention to another high priority route…eh Sackville Place. Not on everyones list to be sure but important none the less. DCC Roads have taken up all the flagstones of their “asset” and replaced with cement, literally smothering the granite kerb stones. Its the ugliest thing you have seen…since the last Roads initiative. Public Realm Strategy anyone?

    BTW,I was advised that the overgrown trees on Westmoreland Street will be prunned…in tandem with Metro North works

  • #755755

    urbanisto
    Participant

    More repro standards on College Green. It must be said that improved lighting here is very much needed…its very dark at night. Looks like they need to do a bit each Sunday due to traffic volumes….so it may be a while before we see the finished scheme. I hope the take the awful standards at Grafton Street down while they are at it – 1970s industrial park chic.

  • #755756

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    I’m now reduced to a forlorn hope that some Candlestick Maker can be found to sponsor a few burning rushes along Westmoreland St,or failing that we could appeal to the reps of the late U.S General William Westmoreland for “assistance” in deposing the current City Governance regime ?

  • #755757

    Cathal Dunne
    Participant

    @paul Clerkin wrote:

    Graham – another view of those concrete posts on O’Connell Street – from the new Edwin Smith book

    Are they the same lights as the one which currently illuminates one of the bus stops on Pearse St.? They look very similar to it.

  • #755758

    urbanisto
    Participant

    I’ve started so I’ll finish….eh not quite.


    Pearse Street – there are 7 lamps here…and this is but one section of the street. Works took place in 2007.


    Bride Street – think this work just recently started but it begs the question: why start another scheme while there are so many unfinished schemes.


    Marlborough Street


    College Green

  • #755759

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Below is a part of a DCC response made to me when I queried a number of half completed lighting schemes in prominent parts of the city. It might interest others:

    The majority of the outstanding work involved will have to be carried out on Sundays as they are main traffic routes. Dublin City Council has plans in place to complete these projects but is however experiencing difficulty in getting them finished for the following reasons:

    · Lack of staff due to the embargo on employment

    · The difficulty of getting the staff that are available to work every Sunday

    · The retirement of some key staff

    · The pressure of completing other projects

    · The fact that Dublin City Council has to find funding for these projects when it did not expect to have to fund them

    Much of the lost time in completing the projects, to date, arose because Dublin City Council was pursuing the contractors involved in the various developments to deliver on their commitment. Unfortunately Dublin City Council now has to accept that these contractors are no longer in a position to deliver the works required and the City Council is left to deal with the problems. Dublin City Council will work on completing these projects this year but realistically some of the projects are unlikely to be completed until next year.

    Please see below for information on the individual public lighting schemes you have queried:

    College Green

    The Historic Paving Stones are currently in storage and will be re-laid within the coming weeks as work at ground level is almost complete. Works to be completed by end September 2012

    Pearse Street

    For various reasons it has been difficult to close off this project.

    At Trinity College Dublin Science Gallery Dublin City Council went in to install the columns on the into town side after the civil contractor had completed his works. Unfortunately Dublin City Council could only install two of the four columns (these are the two columns with no lanterns on them) because some of the ducts that were to have been installed by the contractor could not be found and the electrical supply was not provided. Efforts were made to contact the contractor without success. Temporary lighting was installed on the far side of the street to maintain a good lighting level on the street.

    At some of the junctions along Pearse Street some existing columns still have to be removed. These were not removed at the time due to electrical supplies inside the columns being used by other utilities such as cameras, bollards, traffic light controllers, telemetry meter cabinets and so on.

    East of the junction with Macken Street on the out of town side again (called Gallery Quay) Dublin City Council was unable to complete works because of missing or damaged ducts. Here an additional pole had to be installed to get an overhead supply to the 4 no. new lights along here. The contractor who carried out the ducting works, Pierse Contracting has since gone into liquidation.

    Ringsend Village

    Work originally began in Ringsend as part of a rejuvenation project including redesigning pavement layout and the provision of a complete new lighting installation. The responsibility for developing the plan was given to consultant architects and the contract was awarded to a contractor. These improvements were being funded by the DDDA.

    The Contractors were responsible for installing the foundation bases, ducts, cable chambers as well as installing the new lighting system. The lighting columns chosen for Ringsend were rejected by the residents meaning the lighting installation could not proceed. Dublin City Council’s Lighting Division inherited several issues from the Contractor (including sourcing of suitable columns manufactured to fit the foundation bases already provided by the contractor).

    A concerted effort was made in 2007 to complete the scheme. However, significant problems were encountered. These included: missing foundation bases, loose foundation bolts, misaligned bolts, several foundation bases missing bolts, damaged ducts and cables.

    A Civil Contractor was working on correcting these issues with approximately €50,000 spent on correcting the workmanship of the Contractor. Unfortunately due to missing or damaged ducting and foundation bases Dublin City Council have only managed to complete 60% of the project.

    Merrion Square

    The lamp standards referred to in your e-mail are the inner steel cores of the replica columns. The outer embellishments which are an identical replica of the original lamp standards will be fitted by mid August 2012.

  • #755760

    urbanisto
    Participant

    From Dublin Civic Trust

    Historic Street Lighting – A Model for Dublin

    A successful retrofitting of historic street lights with energy-efficient LEDs has been recently undertaken in the centre of the German city of Leipzig. The innovative project was spearheaded by Braun Lighting Solutions of Berlin and solid-state lighting experts Future Lighting Solutions, with the aim of renovating and making more efficient the host of historic Schinkel gas lamps that have been a feature of the historic city centre of Leipzig since the nineteenth century.

    The challenge for the project engineers was to incorporate energy efficient LEDs into the historic lamps in a manner that replicated the appearance of the original clusters of gas mantles inside each lantern head, as well as maintaining the ambient warm glow of gas light that is a defining characteristic of the city centre after nightfall. The initial models for Braun’s trial were the last three original gas lamps in front of the famous St. Thomas Church, the home of Johann Sebastian Bach.

    “In Leipzig, the LED technology of the future meets the past of city lights which are more than 150 years old,” said Andre Braun, CEO of Braun Lighting Solutions. “Our approach keeps the traditional form of the lamps but lets them shine in a new light through advanced LED technology. We have been able to deliver on the goals for energy efficiency and environmental protection at the same time as meeting the requirement to preserve a historical artefact.”

    By equipping the 360 Schinkel lights around St. Thomas Church with the latest LUXEON® Rebel LEDs, the city can save €20,000 a year in energy costs. The LED lamps consume only 22W, by comparison with the 85W power consumption of the lamps they replace. This 73.3% reduction in the power load also reduces CO2 emissions by 60.8 tonnes per year. Thus, the project is an important contribution to the implementation of urban climate protection goals in Germany.

    To achieve the effect of gas lighting, the original parts of the historic lamps were supplemented with a patent-pending technology that mimics the size and arrangement of the previous mantles. The four mantles were replaced by four LED modules covered by satined glass, giving the impression of glowing mantles suspended within the lamps. The difference between the LED lamps and the gas light originals can only be detected on close inspection. An elegant touch was the incorporation of a single 1.2W LED in the roof of each lamp to provide a subtle glow for the opal glass at the top of the unit. Future Lighting Solutions also managed the process of ensuring consistency in colour temperature across all of the hundreds of LEDS used in the sceheme.

    A Model for Dublin?
    The Trust believes this is the type of project that Dublin should be undertaking as part of its Draft Public Realm Strategy in partnership with the Lighting Department of Dublin City Council. There is a number of locations where such as world-class synergy of heritage conservation and cutting-edge technology should be utilised, including, for example, the re-erection of the original 84 historic oil lamps that once graced the railings of Mountjoy Square, through to reinstating the private lamps of many of the city’s Georgian streets, as has been successfully undertaken in Edinburgh. Dublin’s quays could also benefit from such unified treatment, as well as many of its smaller streets and lanes.

    The Trust has also advocated the retention of the traditional pillar standards on Grafton Street as part of its proposed repaving plan, and retrofitting them with correctly designed, high quality historic Dublin lantern heads fitted with sparkling LEDs.

    In spite of the widespread use of silver Scotch Standard lampposts on the city’s streets – many reproduction – extraordinarily, there are almost no enclaves of historic lighting left anywhere in Dublin. Recent attempts to replace lantern heads on St. Stephen’s Green and the Ha’penny Bridge have resulted in poor, factory-produced imitations that in no way accord with Georgian oil and Victorian gas lighting in the city, while historic lighting even outside public buildings leaves a lot to be desired. There is a sore need for a reassessment of Dublin city centre’s lighting needs and how the city can best present itself through informed lighting design as part of a high quality public realm. One option could be to undertake a short study of historic Dublin lamp types, and incorporate these into the palette of materials currently being composed by Dublin City Council as part of its upcoming Public Realm Strategy.

    http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/news-entry.php?title=historic-street-lighting—a-model-for-dublin&post=1343924148

  • #755761

    urbanisto
    Participant

    This is the kind of thing that really bugs me and makes me wonder about all that Grafton Street Quarter stuff I have been hearing so little of…

    South King Street

  • #755762

    Adolf Luas
    Participant

    While we’re on the subject of lampposts….
    http://www.stoneybutter.com/project/play-stations/

  • #755763

    urbanisto
    Participant

    7 years after it was started, the ‘new’ public lighting scheme on Pearse Street has finally been completed and the odd bod collection of old stuff removed. And despite earlier grumpy comments from me, the finish of the pavement looks well.

    We’re making progress people…

    No sign of the same for parts of historic granite on College Green though. That will have to wait until Luas CrossCity.

  • #755764

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    Hard to friggin believe that its over Three YEARS since I posted about the stygian blackness of Westmoreland Street ,It now WORSE than ever !……DCC’s long game is obviously working as it appear they are waiting on the Electric Tramway Company to light the place up….But perhaps I’m expecting a bit much from DCC….as the arrangements surrounding the Bus Diversions at Merrion Row quite clearly show…..The REAL power base now is obviously the Taxi Driving Fraternity…… :crazy:

  • #755765

    urbanisto
    Participant

    we’ve run out of lightbulbs maybe? a few of them aul galvanised steel yokes that were put up in Coolock Industrial Estate should work a treat.

  • #755766

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    At this point in time,with the Darkness of Winter approaching (NOTE to DCC…Winter evenings = Darkness……Hint-Hint ? ) I would be satisfied with bunches of Burning Oil Soaked Rushes tied with wire and hung from some of the forest of poles used for every friggin purpose EXCEPT facilitating the Public’s safe passage into and out of the Portaloos …..If there are any Photo-Hogs on this forum,how about a Nightime Photo Montage of the West side of Westmoreland Street…the dark side between College Green and Fleet Street….?

  • #755767

    Peter Fitz
    Participant

    So that crappy galvanised post that stood alone at the top of Kenilworth Square North for the last number of years was no accident and has been deemed an acceptable replacement for the entire stretch from the junction with Rathgar Avenue down to the end of Kenilworth Road.

    20 or so of the brown aggregate concrete posts line the stretch right down to the end of Kenilworth Road, one of the longest remaining stretches that I am aware of, currently being ripped out and replaced with the lighting equivalent of a shopping trolley.

  • #755768

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Gah! Why must we brutalise our streets? Have urban design principles now plummeted to the extent that even the miserable 1940s produced infinitely better street furniture than we’re capable of seven decades on?

    Fully agreed that Kenilworth Road has a distinctive grandeur thanks to these stylish concrete posts. RIP on Google Street View : (

  • #755769

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Dublin City Council’s ‘Odds n Ends’ Department (Lighting) strikes again. IMO THE worst department within the Council. Continuously wallows in mediocrity.

  • #755770

    Peter Fitz
    Participant

    It looks like the shopping trolley treatment is being extended to take in Kenilworth park, Kenilworth Square North, Kenilworth Road & Grosvenor Road.

    Most of the existing posts appear to be in very good condition. No doubt the council will argue that there were wiring difficulties internally, but surely some form of reconditioning was a viable option when set against the cost of a fresh install.

  • #755771

    Alek Smart
    Participant

    @StephenC wrote:

    Dublin City Council’s ‘Odds n Ends’ Department (Lighting) strikes again. IMO THE worst department within the Council. Continuously wallows in mediocrity.

    I rather fear,StephenC,that the Public Lighting section merely takes it’s lead from what purports to be Senior Administrators in Civic Offices.

    As most compos-mentis users of Dublin as a functioning Capital City,will readily attest to,the recent activities (or lack of same) all point to a Senior Civic Management Team which has taken,lierally,to a windowless fallout shelter,from where it’s “Professionals” issue an ever increasing stream of manic instructions in the manner of May 1945 Berlin.

    Just take a mid-evening ramble later on,around The Kildare St/Merrion Row/Stephens Green Luas BXD “Site” for a very significant underlining of whats missing “on the street”….it’s mainly down to a lack of INTEREST !!!! :thumbdown:

  • #755774

    Peter Fitz
    Participant

    So the aforementioned ‘lighting scheme’ from Kenilworth Park – Kenilworth Road – Grosvenor Road is now complete it seems.

    What we got is a lovely mish mash, you might even say an eclectic mix.

    Entrance to Street

    A few new posts, hewn from melted shopping trollies

    And, ah lads I couldn’t be arsed with this anymore

    Nice one DCC.

  • #755772

    urbanisto
    Participant

    And good luck getting those tarmac patches filled in…

  • #755773

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Oh dear, what a mess Peter. What strikes me about the Lighting Department in DCC, is that unlike other divisions in there that at least attempt a professional veneer, Lighting really seems to have no pride whatsoever in what it does – either with contemporary or historic stock. It appears there’s barely a person in there that is interested in what they do, or the important role they play in shaping our streetscapes. It’s a real shame. Quite sad, and far removed from most people’s perception of a Pat Liddy-esque, chest swelling public guardian of the realm. A few more cases of the above though, and people will begin to get the message.

    As mentioned before, the fact that wartime lamps are head-and-shoulders above what we’re now getting dished out in the 21st century, speaks volumes of how standards have plummeted…

  • #755775

    urbanisto
    Participant

    Not even an attempt to match lantern heads. Its really shocking. But people also need to demand better. Otherwise it is simply a case of engineers doing their worst with impunity.

  • #755776

    thebig C
    Participant

    If ever there was a case for Victorian reproduction this was it!

    Its says it all when the 1940s/1950s product is actually more sympathetic to the Nineteenth Century streetscape.

    C

  • #755777

    urbanisto
    Participant

    My own humble 1930s Corporation Housing Scheme is now getting the loving attention of DCC Public Lighting – with predictable results. A number of these concrete standards are slated for removal…their filials the first things to go. Galvanised yokes to replace them. Assorted lampheads for variety.

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