Noteworthy iconoclasts

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  • #709198

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Since we have encountered so many iconoclasts along the way in our discussions elsewhere, I think that it would not be a bad idea to group them all together for easier and more immediate reference.

    I will start with William Dowsing (known as Smasher Dowsing), cromwellian iconoclast and arch-vandal in Cambridge and Suffolk 1643-1644.

    Here are the biographical details:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dowsing

    Here is an access to the 1885 edition of his infamous autobiographical catalogue of destruction:

    http://ia331309.us.archive.org/1/items/journalofdowsing00whituoft/journalofdowsing00whituoft.pdf

    A contemporary view of his activities and the judgement made by history on him:

    http://www.colnestour.org/william_dowsing.htm

    Here, the angels on the baptismal font at Litlington defaced by the “Bedlam Dowsing” on 14 March 1644:

  • #787331

    Anonymous

    And these articles should help to set the historical parameters of iconoclasm:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm

  • #787332

    Anonymous

    Oooh I am allowed to nominate the cromwellian officers Hewson and Reynolds – not neccessarily for whacking religious icons per se, but as arch wreckers of Irish castles and tower houses – Dunamaise in Laois being one example, but they were prolific all over the country… So many times Ive turned up at a tower house to find that the feckers have ripped out the spiral staircase, thus rendering it unusable then – but also now depriving me of being able to get up to the battlements ๐Ÿ™

    So Hewson and Reynolds are my nomination…Though Sam Stephenson did used to insist that he was an iconoclast, but I wont go there ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #787333

    Anonymous

    The whole Reformation movement which saw the destruction of many a church and monastery, throughout Ireland, Britain and Europe!

    Closer to home, Dublin Corporation, developers and successive governments ,mainly FF, circa 1960’s, 70’s and 80’s etc.. for the ruination of Dublin city centre.

    In this time, many a fine church, both catholic and protestant has been lost due to falling congregation numbers and greedy developers!

  • #787334

    Anonymous

    Starting at the start, here is the daddy of them of them all: The Emperor Leo III, the Isaurian, who unleashed the destruction of icons in the Byzantine empire in consequence of which he finally killed off the last vestiges of any union between the Western and Eastern Empires by losing control of the South of Italy and reducing the Imperial exarchate in Ravenna to a splendid isolation.

    http://www.roman-emperors.org/leoiii.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_III_the_Isaurian

  • #787335

    Anonymous

    And here is a link to a home-grown product: Murchadh na nDtoitean (Maurice the Burner) who ravaged most of South Munster in 1643 for Cromwell:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murrough_O'Brien,_1st_Earl_of_Inchiquin

  • #787336

    Anonymous

    Even putting aside the vandalism planned for the Re-ordering of St. Colman’s, I would have to nominate Bishop Magee as a top modern day Iconoclast on the basis of the sheer neglect he and his sycophantic cohorts have given St. Colman’s. Re-ordering aside the state of the mosaics floors, the side chapels, the doors, the grime….. Iconoclasm on a slow burner….

  • #787337

    Anonymous
    samuel j wrote:
    Even putting aside the vandalism planned for the Re-ordering of St. Colman&#8217]

    Iconoclasm on the slow burner. This is indeed the case and it is calculated to leach ever shred of reverence for God’s house out of the faithful – especially the young who are given every principle of irreverence to imbibe by such appaling neglect.

    But, this tactic is well known and documented. In a book published by the Camden Society in 1845,The Churches of Cambridgeshire and the Isle of Ely we are told that at Cherry Hinton “the north Aisle is blocked off, and irreverently used a dust-hole and rubblish depositary- an idle and unseemly custom, very common in the churches in the neighbourhood of Cambridge“.

    In Cobh, the iconoclasts have turned the Lady Chapel into a dust hole and repositary for benches, seats, chairs and any other sundry pieces of handily available rubbish while the baptistery is exposed to any thug who wants to lift the marble from its rail – or for that matter dig holes in the floor of the Cathedral in the dead of night.

  • #787338

    Anonymous

    Don’t forget the sport of golf and the unneccesary practice of pine forestry. Landscapes are also art.

  • #787339

    Anonymous

    And here we have another home grown product: Eamonn Casey wrecker of St. Mary’s Cathedral, Killarney, Co. Kerry. It was from here that the craze took off in the Kerry diocese of stripping the plaster from the internal walls of churches to reveal rubble.

    His famous take on the Killarney job was that it improved on Pugin. Did you ever…

    Interestingly, I have heard it said that anyone who will wreck a church will wreck the Church!!

  • #787340

    Anonymous

    ANd this particular home grown version, Cathal Daly, must have the red reostte for Cathedral wreckage and iconoclasm in Ireland for he managed to wreck Longford Cathedral, Belfast Cathedral and did a few bits and pieces in Armagh Cathedral. the laugh is that he recently published a book on nothing less than environmental ethics!!!!:

  • #787341

    Anonymous

    And this home grown one, Joe Duffy, did the wreck job on JJ. McCarthy’s masterpiece, St McCarthan’s Cathedral in Monaghan. The same fellow was heavily involved in producing the DIY guide for ecclesiastical wreckers produced by the “Art” and aArchitecture Sub-Commission of the Liturgical Commission of the Irish Episcopal Conference and therein advocates an absolute and uncompromising tabula rasa approach.

  • #787342

    Anonymous

    Casey, Daly, Duffy and of course Magee, its good to know we have and had such enlightened shepherds overseeing the flock and its habitat…..The term a Wolf in Sheeps clothing comes to mind….

    Must all have been members of some secret Mutal Admiration & Obliteration Society……more likely though just egoes long out of touch with the laity…..

  • #787343

    Anonymous

    Below is a picture of the High Altar of the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin. It was the work and master-piece of Peter Turnarelli. It was custom made for the site it was to occupy and in complete proportion to the interior of the Pro.

    In an act of arch-vandalism, it was demolished by Professor Cathal O’Neill and atomized with bit and pieces of it scattered through out the building and beyond. In its place, a tabernacle was erected from the remains of the High Altar. Not only is the tabernacle in disproportion to the surrounding interior but is internally inconsistent with a dome placed on top-of the tabernacle that one crowned the canopy over the tabernacle.

    In the cromwellian manner of Will Dowsing, Professor O’Neill also demolished and erased the steps to the altar in the Pro-Cathedral -a solution that was was to have a peculiar apotheosis in his later proposals for Cobh Cathedral where he envisaged the removal of most of the sanctuary floor so as to lower its level!

    Fortunately for Christian worship, O’Neill has “reordered” only a few churches in Ireland and thanks to the common sense of An Bord Pleannala his plan for the wreckage of Cobh Cathedral came to nothing and was regarded as a serious compromise of the architectural integrity of the building.

    Mo naire thu !!!

  • #787344

    Anonymous

    Can anyone tell me, about female singing in churches pre Vatican II ? Was it totally banned? Theoretically but not practically? In some places and not others? Tolerated during some centuries? What is and was the situation in Orthodox churches?etc I would love to know, it’s hard to get a definitive answer. What has this to do with the thread you ask? Aural iconoclasm; of the ROMAN church!

  • #787345

    Anonymous

    Ah AKE, digitus in vulnera!

    The wreckage that has gone on in churches is only out stripped by that unleashed in the musical tradition of the Roman church.

    Again, Sacroscnctum Concilium (chapetr 6) is cited as justification for this – which is complete rubbish since the principles outlined there are basically taken over from the Motu Proprio of St. Pope Pius X Tra le Sollecitiduniof 1904. The latter gave rise to the growth of a number of good musical traditions in a number of Irish Cathedrals and caused the employment of organists mainly from Belgium in several of the bigger parishes. That is not to say that that no tradition existed: just take a look at the musical repetoire used for the Synod of Thurles in 1850. It was quite sophisticated and the same can be said of the consecrations of many of the Cathedrals during the 19th. century e.g. Ballinasloe (an account of which I posted here earlier).

    In many of the Irish Cathedrals the Roman tradition prevailed: i.e. unaccompanied vocal sung by a male choir. The model, in many cases, was the Sixtine Choir in Rome and the repetoire contained all the main composers of the 16 and 17 century Roman schools: Palestrina, Monteverde, Allegri etc. Here the principles had been alid down by the Council of Trent which refused to restrict sacred music to plain chaunt alone. It also permitted polyphany and especially as espoused by Palestrina – something repeated in 1904 and again in 1964.

    An important centre for sacred music in Ireland was the College Chapel in Maynooth which had a complete set of Palestrina’s Masses and Motets specifically arranged for the Chapel by the first Professor of Sacred Music there Dr. Heinrich Bewerunge, from Dusseldorf and a priest of the diocese of Paderborn, who brought with him to Maynooth something of the musical tradition of Regensburg where he had studied music. Bewerunge had been chanter in the Cathedral of Cologne before he came to Ireland during the Kulturkampf. He is an important -and completely forgotten- influence on the development of ecclesiastical music in Ireland. In the 1970s the sheets of his transcriptions of Palestrina were dumped into the library in Maynooth and and Fr. McNamara of the Schola Cantorum in Mullingar was one of the few to keep any vestige of the singing tradition of Bewerunge alive.

    I am afraid that Michael Row the Boat Ashore is nowhere mentioned in Vatican II!!

  • #787346

    Anonymous

    But what about the women prax?

  • #787347

    Anonymous
    ake wrote:
    Can anyone tell me, about female singing in churches pre Vatican II ? Was it totally banned? Theoretically but not practically? In some places and not others? Tolerated during some centuries? What is and was the situation in Orthodox churches?etc I would love to know, it’s hard to get a definitive answer. What has this to do with the thread you ask? Aural iconoclasm]

    the short answer to the first question was NO. You had to have female voices if you were going to sing e.g. The Coronation Mass.

    Second question: NO to that too.

    Third question: depended on the style of music: if the Roman tradition had been adopted then there would be a male choir – e.g. the Palestrina in the Pro-Cathedral when founded.

  • #787348

    Anonymous

    Well, take for example soeur Marie Keyrouz, chant byzantin- was that music performed by a woman or a eunuch!
    Or what about, say Handel’s latin music, like his saeviat tellus etc, of course performed by women today, but was it written for castrato or were there women singing this in churches?

  • #787349

    Anonymous

    @ake wrote:

    Well, take for example soeur Marie Keyrouz, chant byzantin- was that music performed by a woman or a eunuch!
    Or what about, say Handel’s latin music, like his saeviat tellus etc, of course performed by women today, but was it written for castrato or were there women singing this in churches?

    Well, there were these little things….I do not know that they were introduced into Ireland…some might have been a but squeemish….that is why Bewerunge had to transpose Palestrina.

  • #787350

    Anonymous

    @ake wrote:

    Well, take for example soeur Marie Keyrouz, chant byzantin- was that music performed by a woman or a eunuch!
    Or what about, say Handel’s latin music, like his saeviat tellus etc, of course performed by women today, but was it written for castrato or were there women singing this in churches?

    If I am not mistaken the Carmelite Vsepers were commissioned from Handel by Cardinal Colonna in 1707 and the Saeviat tellus was sung by a soprano at its first performance for the feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (16 July) in the Montesanto.

    Clearly, in convents bound to the office, it would have been the norm to have them sung by the nuns – and by the orphans they often cared for as in the Ospedaletto in Venice which had very notable female musical tradition.

    Knowledge of chant byzantin rather limited!

  • #787351

    Anonymous

    fair enough! I’m just a stickler for historical accuracy, in some things anyway. I always read the statement “..since women were banned from singing in the catholic church” and can’t believe it. For two thousand years!? Especially incredible in the 18th century when there were professional opera singers in such abundance

  • #787352

    Anonymous

    @ake wrote:

    fair enough! I’m just a stickler for historical accuracy, in some things anyway. I always read the statement “..since women were banned from singing in the catholic church” and can’t believe it. For two thousand years!? Especially incredible in the 18th century when there were professional opera singers in such abundance

    What do we mean by “banned from singing in the Catholic Church?” Simply not permitted to sing in a church or not to sing at all anywhere?

  • #787353

    Anonymous

    @ake wrote:

    fair enough! I’m just a stickler for historical accuracy, in some things anyway. I always read the statement “..since women were banned from singing in the catholic church” and can’t believe it. For two thousand years!? Especially incredible in the 18th century when there were professional opera singers in such abundance

    Women singing, castrati or even some cross dresser with a good voice…. I doubt they ever imagined the depths of the abyss where we have ended up with the likes of the singing priest phenomenon bashing out Kumbaya and Michael Row the Boat ashore….. Michael Cleary et al….

    Where did it go so horribly wrong….

  • #787354

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    What do we mean by “banned from singing in the Catholic Church?” Simply not permitted to sing in a church or not to sing at all anywhere?

    ๐Ÿ˜€ Inside the church as part of the service of course!

  • #787355

    Anonymous

    @ake wrote:

    ๐Ÿ˜€ Inside the church as part of the service of course!

    It was ambivalent!

    I would like to see the legislation on that one!

    As I said, the preference of the Roman tradition was unaccompanied male voice choir, schola or cappella. But, the Roman tradition was not universal and certainly different musical traditions existed in the Empire.

  • #787356

    Anonymous

    Liam McCormick is recognised as the father of modern Irish church architecture. He is responsible for breaking the mould of the steadfastly Hiberno-Gothic-Italianite, and creating something altogether different – something new, something modern. Being the fons et origo of the vandalistic iconoclasm that was unleashed in Ireland throughout the 70s and 80s is perhaps something with which one would not ordinarily like being associated. But, there can be no doubt that his efforts in Armagh Cathedral qualify him for the category of Archvandal.
    C. Brett has the following to say in his Buildings of County Armagh

    Formerly, it was the marvellous lacy and frothy high altar, screen pulpit and rails of white Caen stone, all the work of Ashlin & Coleman; but these were unhappily ripped out and simply discarded in the re-ordering after Vatican II: two of the beautifully-carved crockets stand on my window-ledge to this day, having been rescued from the dump by the late Kenneth Adams. This was justified at the time on the grounds that “the fine character of the interior was marred by the later introduction of screens, elaborate altar rails and pulpit”: and what the architects set out to achieve was “a return to JJ McCarthy’s original concept … They recommended a simplification of the interior, which would also add a greater formality to ceremony”. If these were the objectives, few people think they have been successfully achieved. The new fittings already appear dated, and are utterly incongruous. “Neither the quality of the replacements nor the skill of the craftsmanship can disguise the total alienation of the new work from the spirit and meaning that was McCarthy’s ecclesiological and architectural inspiration. In this setting, these modern intrusions appear dispassionate and irrelevant” (UAHS, 1992). Jeanne Sheehy acidly records “the replacement … of a fine late Gothic revival chancel with chunks of granite and a tabernacle that looks like a microwave”. It is hard to divine why the church in Ireland has proved to be so much more insensitive in such matters than in most other countries .

    If the interior at Armagh Cathedral was the best he could come up I am afraid that we are dealing with an extremely limited ecclesiological, intellectual and cultural horizon!!

  • #787357

    Anonymous

    And here we have a prime candidate for the title of arch-vandal when it comes to the case of the attempted iconoclastic wreckage of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork.

    Denis Reidy, parish priest of Carrigtwohill, and the real Poltergeist of the Cathedral wreck scheme – and I use the term in its original sense of a spirit moving inanimate objects. From behind the scenes he has moved a series of inanimate objects not only to recommend but also to champion the lunatic plan proposed by Professor Cathal O’Neill for the superb revivalist interior in Cobh. Reidy is not only overall co-ordinator of the Cobh Cathedral project but also a member of the Cathedral Restoration Committee, the Briefing Committee that “recommended” the wreckage of the Cathedral interior, the Art and Architecture Committee convoked to “rubber stamp” the wreckage (and I cannot understand what qualifies Reidy for this committee since he knows nothing about art and even less about architecture), the St. Colman’s Roman Catholic Trust which has been collecting money under charitable pretences for the “restoration” of the Cathedral but has been disbursing them for that purpose, and to add to it all Reidy is a member of that highly eruidite body the Cloyne Historic Churches Committee (aka the HACK) which happily gave an unanimous vote of approval to the proposed wreckage of Cobh Cathedral when proposed by one Alex White and seconded by the Geist himself Reidy.

    Reidy’s most offensive act was to enter St. Colman’s Cathedral in the dead of night and totally oblivious to the sacrednessness of the building proceeded to dig test holes in the floor of the sanctuary with two rude mechanics in a fashion that would probably have been highly approved by Will Dowsing. Needless to say, Reidy had no planning permission for such an act and his friends in the Cobh Urban District Council declined to prosecute him for his vandalism – lest it be seen that they might discourage would be vandals in Cobh!

  • #787358

    Anonymous

    For the category of corporate arch-vandals we must present the Trustees of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork:

    1. Tom Cavanagh of Fermoy, Co. Cork. Cavanagh describes himself Chairman of Cavanagh’s Motor Group Ltd; teacher Cork Vocational Education Committee (1952-1953); former Director of Allied Irish Banks; former chariman and current (2006) director of Conrad Hotel; patron Cheshire Homes Cork; trustee of the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Ireland, Trustee of Fermoy Golf Club; chairman of the Trustees of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh; founding chairman of Irish Business against Litter; member of the Board of Trustees of the Gluksman Gallery, Cork; Board of University College Cork, UCC board member of the Fenton Gallery. We are told that his hobbies, apart from wrecking Cobh Cathedral, include voluntary community work , reading, travel, arts !!, theatre and, somewhat incongrously in the Case of Cobh Cathedral given the present mess it is in, anti-litter campaigns. We are also told that he is a change-embracer when it is good!

    2. Tim Fouhy a junior curate in Cobh and a would-be musician. None of the usual Who’s Who sources have anything to say about this individual. WHo might I ask dresses in a suit without a tie? Enough said.

    3. Bishop Magee, well, suffice it to say that it is strange that 30 years of meandering around the painted halls of the Vatican Palace has seemingly not had the slightest effect on him as far as art or architecture are concerned. Apart from trying to wreck Cobh Cathedral he does not have hobbies.

  • #787359

    admin
    Keymaster

    WHo might I ask dresses in a suit without a tie?

    I often do but generally leave the top shirt button open

  • #787360

    Anonymous

    And another candidate for the title of arch-vandal: Fr. Danny Murphy, a curate in the diocese of Cloyne who, having listned to his mater’s voice, cobbled together a few ideas that were passed off as a liturgical justification for the proposed vandalism. It was significant that at the Midleton Oral Hearing he was not called by the wreckers to defend or explain his crap position paper which had already been taken to pieces by a competent liturgist. I cannot find any reference to him in any of the Who’s Who sources. Clearly, we must not be a some body!

    Here is the nonsense article that Will Dowsing would be proud of: http://www.foscc.com/downloads/other/Liturgical%20Requirements2.pdf

  • #787361

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    Who might I ask dresses in a suit without a tie?

    The no-tie-top-button-closed look is one favoured by quite a few architects I know, though usually those in the later part of their career. Perhaps the only thing worse is the grandfather collar with the top button closed.

    Anyway- Page 2 and nobody has mentioned Hugh Brady, President of UCD? Allow me to rectify that, if you will.

  • #787362

    Anonymous

    @ctesiphon wrote:

    The no-tie-top-button-closed look is one favoured by quite a few architects I know, though usually those in the later part of their career. Perhaps the only thing worse is the grandfather collar with the top button closed.

    Anyway- Page 2 and nobody has mentioned Hugh Brady, President of UCD? Allow me to rectify that, if you will.

    If memory serves me correctly, Cathal O’Neill turned in in the kind of a get-up at teh Midleton Oral Hearing. The only difference being taht he was wearing bronw suede bootees – is that part of the kit for architects in the later parts of the careers^?

    The no-tie.top-button-closed looks conjures up for me images of Pakistani politicians!!

  • #787363

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    If memory serves me correctly, Cathal O’Neill turned in in the kind of a get-up at teh Midleton Oral Hearing. The only difference being taht he was wearing bronw suede bootees – is that part of the kit for architects in the later parts of the careers?

    Not sure about the boots, but maybe CO’N dressed like that at the OH to signify which side he was on? ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #787364

    Anonymous

    Fr. Paddy Jones is the “genius” behind much of the liturgical “thinking” going on in Ireland. He is currently director of the National Institute for Pastoral Liturgy aka an institute primarily concerned with flower arranging. The “Institute” was originally based in Portarlington but then drifted to Carlow College and from there was drawn to Maynooth where it occupied the useful function of paying rent for otherwise vacant rooms.

    Fr. Paddy Jones is the “mind” behind the wreckage of St. St. Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth and was called to give “expert” advice at the Mdleton Oral Hearing on behalf of the Trustees of St. Colman’s Cathedral
    http://www.foscc.com/downloads/oh/22.%20Paddy%20Jones.pdf . By his own admission he was one of those taken for a spin by Martin Cullen in the drafting of Architectural Guidelines for places of worship.

    Paddy Jones, as far as can be made out, has written nothing substantial in relation to the liturgy and, after nearly 40 years as a “liturgy” guru has not much to show for advancement of the science of liturgy.

    In some respects, I fear that WIll Dowsing would be likely to consider him a little to extreme.

    As Paddy fast approaches retirement there is some hope that what he has not managed to get his hands on in the way of architectural heritage may survive for future generations.

    As with the liturical gerentocracy Paddy shares an unreconstructed 60s dress sense!

  • #787365

    Anonymous

    @ctesiphon wrote:

    Not sure about the boots, but maybe CO’N dressed like that at the OH to signify which side he was on? ๐Ÿ™‚

    Good point Ctesiphon. I must check to see if he had the closed-top-button grandfather shirt!

  • #787366

    Anonymous

    The eighteenth century witnessed what was left of the once-magnificent Glastonbury Abbey in Somerset England used as target practice. Engravings of the day show walls that gradually were worn down by gunshot. So much beauty destroyed!

    @ake wrote:

    Don’t forget the sport of golf and the unneccesary practice of pine forestry. Landscapes are also art.

  • #787367

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    ANd this particular home grown version, Cathal Daly, must have the red reostte for Cathedral wreckage and iconoclasm in Ireland for he managed to wreck Longford Cathedral, Belfast Cathedral and did a few bits and pieces in Armagh Cathedral. the laugh is that he recently published a book on nothing less than environmental ethics!!!!:

    It’s always more tempting to clean up someone else’s back yard. [Particularly after you’ve wrecked your own several times over. ‘Tis an ill bird that befouls its own nest.]

  • #787368

    Anonymous

    @PVC King wrote:

    I often do but generally leave the top shirt button open

    I would suggest perhaps he is an Irish Jansenist, but then given the antipathy to beautiful liturgy, I’d be willing to guess he’s a full out puritan. Where are his hat and blunderbuss?

  • #787369

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    Fr. Paddy Jones is the “genius” behind much of the liturgical “thinking” going on in Ireland. He is currently director of the National Institute for Pastoral Liturgy aka an institute primarily concerned with flower arranging. The “Institute” was originally based in Portarlington but then drifted to Carlow College and from there was drawn to Maynooth where it occupied the useful function of paying rent for otherwise vacant rooms.

    Fr. Paddy Jones is the “mind” behind the wreckage of St. St. Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth and was called to give “expert” advice at the Mdleton Oral Hearing on behalf of the Trustees of St. Colman’s Cathedral
    http://www.foscc.com/downloads/oh/22.%20Paddy%20Jones.pdf . By his own admission he was one of those taken for a spin by Martin Cullen in the drafting of Architectural Guidelines for places of worship.

    Paddy Jones, as far as can be made out, has written nothing substantial in relation to the liturgy and, after nearly 40 years as a “liturgy” guru has not much to show for advancement of the science of liturgy.

    In some respects, I fear that WIll Dowsing would be likely to consider him a little to extreme.

    As Paddy fast approaches retirement there is some hope that what he has not managed to get his hands on in the way of architectural heritage may survive for future generations.

    As with the liturical gerentocracy Paddy shares an unreconstructed 60s dress sense!

    “Where have all the flowers gone?”

    By the way, ol’ Paddy may not realise it yet, but “The Liturgical Movement” was by no means The Second Coming. In fact Pius X and Pius XII spent considerable time guiding the correct “spirit” of the liturgy and rescuing it from the fanatics who would have stripped the churches bare back in 1910 and 1940. In fact Pius XII’s Mediator Dei (1947), the first papal encyclical dedicated to the topic of the sacred liturgy, is recognised as a reproof against the excesses of the monks of Maria Laach and Odo Casel in particular. Pius is careful to identify the positive fruits of the LM but by no means does he canonise it or give it a blank cheque (which is what our churches would have looked like long before today if they had had their way). Casel died in 1948 before he could write his apologia, much as Annibale Bugnini would do from his exile in Baghdad under Pope Paul VI.

    For the record, ake, Pius X did not forbid women from singing in church. Tra le sollecitudini merely relegated female soloists, scholae/choirs and mixed scholae/choirs to the gallery, whereas male scholae/choirs were allowed to remain in the “choir” or sanctuary. It never fails to amaze and amuse me when people leap to the wrong conclusion as they hear or read that Pius X forbade women to sing “in the choir” – the motu proprio refers not to a group of singers, which today we casually refer to as “the choir,” but to the sanctuary.

    Irish readers may be amused to read the final short story “The Dead” in James Joyce’s Dubliners series. Aunt Kate expresses her fury that the long-suffering Aunt Julia was given notice that her musical services were no longer needed in the sanctuary. The story is set in Dublin on Epiphany Day (6 January) 1904. Tra le sollecitudini had been issued by Pius X on 22 November 1903. It was being implemented promptly in Dublin. John Huston’s last film is a poignant presentation of The Dead. It stars his daughter Angelica and the screen play was written by his son Tim. Frank Patterson plays a role and sings The Lass of Aughrim. (The harp solo at the beginning and at the end of the film is quite touching). Huston was dying as he directed the film. It is a labour of love and should be of interest to all who love Ireland and its heritage of faith, literature, and culture.

  • #787370

    Anonymous

    Rhabanus!

    That is indeed an important point: the Second Vatican Council in NOT the same thing as the Liturgical Movement. Neither did Vatican II uncritically canonize the Liturgical Movement nor accept all of its currents. Indeed, you would also have to say that there is no such thing as a “Liturgical Movement”. Rather, there are several different “Liturgical Movements” -and not all are of the same significance or seriousness. I suspect that Paddy Jones is to be found towards the dafter end of the spectrum where a lot of rubbish is passed off on the unsuspecting as being required by Vatican II when in fact they are talking about some of the nuttier things from the Liturgical Movement’s other side.

    P.S. Did not the same lady in Dubliners have a little remark to make about a certain Italian composer?

  • #787371

    Anonymous

    @rhabanus wrote:

    “Where have all the flowers gone?”

    By the way, ol’ Paddy may not realise it yet, but “The Liturgical Movement” was by no means The Second Coming. In fact Pius X and Pius XII spent considerable time guiding the correct “spirit” of the liturgy and rescuing it from the fanatics who would have stripped the churches bare back in 1910 and 1940. In fact Pius XII’s Mediator Dei (1947), the first papal encyclical dedicated to the topic of the sacred liturgy, is recognised as a reproof against the excesses of the monks of Maria Laach and Odo Casel in particular. Pius is careful to identify the positive fruits of the LM but by no means does he canonise it or give it a blank cheque (which is what our churches would have looked like long before today if they had had their way). Casel died in 1948 before he could write his apologia, much as Annibale Bugnini would do from his exile in Baghdad under Pope Paul VI.

    Here is the link to the English translation of Mediator Dei:

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

    Something chronological on the Liturgical Movement in Germany:

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgische_Bewegung

  • #787372

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    Rhabanus!

    That is indeed an important point: the Second Vatican Council in NOT the same thing as the Liturgical Movement. Neither did Vatican II uncritically canonize the Liturgical Movement nor accept all of its currents. Indeed, you would also have to say that there is no such thing as a “Liturgical Movement”. Rather, there are several different “Liturgical Movements” -and not all are of the same significance or seriousness. I suspect that Paddy Jones is to be found towards the dafter end of the spectrum where a lot of rubbish is passed off on the unsuspecting as being required by Vatican II when in fact they are talking about some of the nuttier things from the Liturgical Movement’s other side.

    P.S. Did not the same lady in Dubliners have a little remark to make about a certain Italian composer?

    The lady with the remark about Verdi was Mrs Mallins, Freddy’s mother:

    “I understand that Mr Verdi’s morals are dubious … very dubious.”

    The line is delivered with particular aplomb by Irish actress Marie Keane.
    _______

    The conversation over Pius X’s motu proprio Tra le sollecitudini is noteworthy. Aunt Julia has just sung “Arrayed for the Bridal” from Bellini’s opera I Puritani (1835). Following the accolades, Julia says:

    — Thirty years ago I hadn’t a bad voice as voices go.

    — I often told Julia, said Aunt Kate emphatically, that she was simply thrown away in that choir. Bur she never would be said by me … No, continued Aunt Kate, she wouldn’t be said or led by anyone, slaving there in that choir night and day, night and day. Six o’clock on Christmas morning! And all for what?

    –Well, isn’t it for the glory of God, Aunt Kate? asked Mary Jane, twisting around on the piano-stool and smiling.

    Aunt Kate turned fiercely on her niece and said:
    –I know all about the honour of God, Mary Jane, but I think it’s not at all honourable for the pope to turn out the women out of the choirs that have slaved there all their lives and put little whipper-snappers of boys over their heads. I suppose it is for the good of the Church if the pope does it, but it’s not just, Mary Jane, and it’s not right.

    She had worked herself into a passion and would have continued in defence of her sister for it was a sore subject with her but Mary Jane, seeing that all the dancers had come back, intervened pacifically:

    –Now Aunt Kate, you’re giving scandal to Mr Browne who is of the other persuasion.

    Aunt Kate turned to Mr Browne, who was grinning at this allusion to his religion, and said hastily:
    –O, I don’t question the pope’s being right. I’m only a stupid old woman and I wouldn’t presume to do such a thing. But there’s such a thing as common everyday politeness and gratitude. And if I were in Julia’s place I’d tell that Father Healy straight up to his face …

    –And besides, Aunt Kate, said Mary Jane, we really are all hungry and when we are hungry we are all very quarrelsome.

    –And when we are thirsty, we are also quarrelsome, added Mr Browne.

    –So that we had better go to supper, saind Mary Jane, and finish our discussion afterwards.

    [James Joyce, “The Dead,” Dubliners, with an introduction and notes by Terence Brown (New York: Penguin, 1993]

  • #787373

    Anonymous

    No rogues’ gallery of clerical iconoclasts would be complete without Fr Richard Vosko, incardinated in the diocese of Albany, New York.

    Read how the people of Guelph, Ontario, prevented a wreckovation of their magnificent Connolly church dedicated to Our Lady:

    http://www.aquinas-multimedia.com/renovation/resources/guelph-ont.html

    http://naal-liturgy.org/images/2005photos/vosko200.jpg

    Check out his book God’s House is Our House: Re-Imagining the Environment for Worship. You may wish to visit his work on Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral, Los Angeles, California.

    http://www.olacathedralgifts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=98

    @praxiteles wrote:

    Here is the link to the English translation of Mediator Dei:

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

    Something chronological on the Liturgical Movement in Germany:

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgische_Bewegung

  • #787374

    Anonymous

    Is this the great Vosko?

    Forgive me if I am mistaken but is Vosko of the Latin Rite?

  • #787375

    Anonymous

    Here is an interesting article about the same Vosko. Surprise, surprise, he is not an architect and as for the rest of his qualifications well…..

    http://www.aquinas-multimedia.com/catherine/dickvosko1.html

    Mention of the Chicago Institute in the article which trains liturgical “consultants” rings a bell for some reason!

  • #787376

    Anonymous

    Here is a quotation from Vosko:

    “The implications of a Vatican II liturgy,” Fr. Vosko wrote in Through the Eye of a Rose Window: A Perspective on the Environment for Worship, “will never be realized as long as it continues to be constricted by Vatican I church building.”

    So, that is where the guffer got the famous hoof-in-the.mouth comment about needing a 21 st century sanctuary for a 21 century liturgy!

  • #787377

    Anonymous

    And here here you can experience the immediacy of the whole horrible scenario:

    http://www.rvosko.com/

  • #787378

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    Is this the great Vosko?

    Forgive me if I am mistaken but is Vosko of the Latin Rite?

    Does his get-up suggest Armenian or Syro-Malabar?

  • #787379

    Anonymous

    Check out his book God’s House is Our House: Re-Imagining the Environment for Worship. You may wish to visit his work on Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral, Los Angeles, California.

    http://www.olacathedralgifts.com/ind…PROD&ProdID=98

  • #787380

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    If memory serves me correctly, Cathal O’Neill turned in in the kind of a get-up at teh Midleton Oral Hearing. The only difference being taht he was wearing bronw suede bootees – is that part of the kit for architects in the later parts of the careers^?

    The no-tie.top-button-closed looks conjures up for me images of Pakistani politicians!!

    ๐Ÿ˜ฎ The tied top button hides their thick necks, a prerequisite for those that feel the need to dictate to all and sundry, (politicians, bishops, city managers etc).

  • #787381

    Anonymous

    @rhabanus wrote:

    Does his get-up suggest Armenian or Syro-Malabar?

    Aren’t Irish dioceses issuing these new birettas to the reverend clergy?

    No??

    Then you are being kept behind the times by all that Vatican I ecclesiology.

    A discreet word to Gamarelli or Barbiconi or EuroClero may just persuade them to start a new line of clerical headgear.

  • #787382

    Anonymous

    And here is one that we cannot (and never will forget) forget: Annibale Bugnini

    When eventually a halt was put to his iconoclasm, it is rumoured that he was given the choice of going to Teharan as Nuncio Apostolic or else of sweeping St. Peter’s Square!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annibale_Bugnini

    http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Inside/05-96/abbot.html

    http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3556

    http://www.catholicrestoration.org/library/ottaviani.htm

  • #787383

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    Below is a picture of the High Altar of the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin. It was the work and master-piece of Peter Turnarelli. It was custom made for the site it was to occupy and in complete proportion to the interior of the Pro.

    In an act of arch-vandalism, it was demolished by Professor Cathal O’Neill and atomized with bit and pieces of it scattered through out the building and beyond. In its place, a tabernacle was erected from the remains of the High Altar. Not only is the tabernacle in disproportion to the surrounding interior but is internally inconsistent with a dome placed on top-of the tabernacle that one crowned the canopy over the tabernacle.

    In the cromwellian manner of Will Dowsing, Professor O’Neill also demolished and erased the steps to the altar in the Pro-Cathedral -a solution that was was to have a peculiar apotheosis in his later proposals for Cobh Cathedral where he envisaged the removal of most of the sanctuary floor so as to lower its level!

    Fortunately for Christian worship, O’Neill has “reordered” only a few churches in Ireland and thanks to the common sense of An Bord Pleannala his plan for the wreckage of Cobh Cathedral came to nothing and was regarded as a serious compromise of the architectural integrity of the building.

    Mo naire thu !!!

    I am just stunned that such fine paintwork could simply be painted over. Stunned. The building now looks like a poor bare-bones CGI rendering of it’s former self. I was in the pro recently and the place is a fucking disgrace. The fine benches are strewn all over the bloody place in a chaotic fashion, It’s looks like the aftermath of a tornado! Up against side altars, IN FRONT of the confession boxes, blocking off the doors (!), piled in corners and plonked in any old place. Not even an excuse for an attempt is made to actually ARRANGE them in some sort of ORDERLY way. All the architectural spaces are compromised by this. Is it too much to ask in the Cathedral of Ireland’s major city, put the benches in straight lines? Then there’s the legions of kitsch candle offering stands all over the place and in the north transept , still not removed, 2 months after Christmas, thehuge shitty cardboard-tinfoil crap ‘nativity scene’ that belongs in a shopping centre taking up the whole transept. Also do you need bright greenlit-up exit signs over doors in churches? No you don’t. That’s my rant.

  • #787384

    Anonymous

    @ake wrote:

    I am just stunned that such fine paintwork could simply be painted over. Stunned. The building now looks like a poor bare-bones CGI rendering of it’s former self. I was in the pro recently and the place is a fucking disgrace. The fine benches are strewn all over the bloody place in a chaotic fashion, It’s looks like the aftermath of a tornado! Up against side altars, IN FRONT of the confession boxes, blocking off the doors (!), piled in corners and plonked in any old place. Not even an excuse for an attempt is made to actually ARRANGE them in some sort of ORDERLY way. All the architectural spaces are compromised by this. Is it too much to ask in the Cathedral of Ireland’s major city, put the benches in straight lines? Then there’s the legions of kitsch candle offering stands all over the place and in the north transept , still not removed, 2 months after Christmas, thehuge shitty cardboard-tinfoil crap ‘nativity scene’ that belongs in a shopping centre taking up the whole transept. Also do you need bright greenlit-up exit signs over doors in churches? No you don’t. That’s my rant.

    Blame the problem of scattered seating on Freddy O’Dwyer and his pals in the Department of the the Environment who were quite prepared to exempt moving seating from the planning lasws. What, of course, he was doing was playing into the hands of the iconoclasts (or perhaps playing with them) by allowing anything to be done with seating provided the seats were not taken out of the building.

    In Cobh we have a notorious example of this problem. The iconoclasts decided to rearrange the seating in the northa nd south transepts and hve them face into the nave rather than facing east to the sanctuary. That left the problem of surplus benches which could not be moved out of the Cathedral. They were then dumped into the Lady Chapel where they continue to destroy the ornamental follor taht was never intended to carry heavy weight benches. Where is Freddy O’Dwyer now? He has done nothing to correct this situation. The Heritage COuncil are worse and clearly have no intention of doing anything. The Cork COunty Heritage Office has been advised of this situation and has done nothing. Needless to say, it would not be worth advising the Town Clerk in Cobh who could not be bothreed to get off his you-know-what (if it not already worn out) and do something about it.

  • #787385

    Anonymous

    Here is a shot of the chaos in the Lady Chapel in Cobh Catedral. Basically, it is used as a dust hole to store rubbish!

  • #787386

    Anonymous

    Another candidate for our gallery;

    Martin Cullen

    And here, inter alia, you can read all about his involvement in the drawing up of guidelines that would have permitted gutting the interior of Cobh Cathedral and any other church building in Ireland: http://www.foscc.com/downloads/oh/22.%20Paddy%20Jones.pdf. The piece was written by Paddy Jones who features earlier in the thread.

  • #787387

    Anonymous

    For the wreckage of Cork Cathedral, St. Augustine’s in Galway and St Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth College as well as for his breathtaking imaginationlessness, we cannot forget to propose for the title of arch-vandal and the WIll Dowsing specilal award the great Richard Hurley and associates!

  • #787388

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    For the wreckage of Cork Cathedral, St. Augustine’s in Galway and St Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth College as well as for his breathtaking imaginationlessness, we cannot forget to propose for the title of arch-vandal and the WIll Dowsing specilal award the great Richard Hurley and associates!

    Plus a big Brooklyn raspberry for these scandalous atrocities! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    Some people’s tase resides exclusively in their mouths.

    A real pity that Church leadership is not in a position to cultivate their tastes and tutor their affections. Once upon a time the Church would bring civilisation as well as faith to new venues. Now the iconoclasts ride like the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.

    It makes one long for the ninth plague of Egypt.

  • #787389

    Anonymous

    And another home-grown product to recommended for the Will Dowsing prize as best supporting role in the attempted arch-vandalism in the proposed wrecking the interior of Cobh Cathedral: Brian McCutcheon.

    He describes himself as follows: “Brian McCutcheon, founding Director, is an economist and town planner. Brian has 25 years of planning experience in the public sector. He was Head of Cork County Council’s Planning Policy Unit before leaving to establish McCutcheon Mulcahy in September 2000. Brian specializes in strategic planning, renewable energy, waste management; retail impact studies and major planning appeals”.

    While this blurb mkes no mention of a theological qualification, the present writer very patiently listened to the good Brian McCutcheon explain all about the liturgical movement and the concept of “privileged seating” in a 21st century liturgical set-up. He did not seem too convincing and was rathr shifty when speaking to Praxiteles. I also notice that he does not include the St. Colman’s Cathedral debacle in his company publicity. I wonder why?

  • #787390

    Anonymous
    Praxiteles wrote:
    And another home-grown product to recommended for the Will Dowsing prize as best supporting role in the attempted arch-vandalism in the proposed wrecking the interior of Cobh Cathedral: Brian McCutcheon.

    He describes himself as follows: “Brian McCutcheon, founding Director, is an economist and town planner. Brian has 25 years of planning experience in the public sector. He was Head of Cork County Council’s Planning Policy Unit before leaving to establish McCutcheon Mulcahy in September 2000. Brian specializes in strategic planning, renewable energy, waste management]

    Perhaps, Prax, the renewable energy and the waste management impacted more than the retail studies and the major planning appeals. One might have suspected an upset somewhere between the apse and the latrine. Ecce stercus cloacarum – non mittendum filiis!

    Honestly, how do these types invariably float to the top? [Don’t answer that one!]

    The blurb alone suggests to Rhabanus Maurus that this specimen belongs well on the other end of Cobh. Are there no serious Irish liturgists who actually understand the metier and are legitimately qualified to exercise authority in this realm?

    Would such a candidate as that described in the aforementioned blurb be allowed to perfom an appendectomy on a patient? Or prepare a legal brief for an upcoming trial? Why is that when it comes to the sacred science of liturgiology and the architectural and artistic restoration of the House of God, the flotsam and the jetsam of backwater bilges are streamlined into liturgical and achitectural committees responsible for momentous decisions? Who ultimately appoints the members of these committees??

    Between this blockbuster, Guffer Jones, and Paddy McGinty’s goat, is there a hope of wafting heavenward anything but a putrid stench, thus offending the nostrils of the Most High?

    Just grant me, O Lord, a place farther upstream!

  • #787391

    Anonymous

    And this one, another home grown product, is the man-who-knows-it-all after a “liturgical” crash course in the Chicago Theological Institute. We are not proposing him for the Will Dowsing prize for acts of arch-vandalism because such would be likely to embarrass the bold Will! Here, of course, we have Brian Quinn the preferred establishment iconoclast and member of the Art and Architecture Committee of the Liturgical Commission of the Irish Episcopal Conference and impresario of the mess at Dromaroad et ailleurs!

    And this is how yer man is described on the webpage of Rooney and McConville: Brian Quinn is an architect and a current member of the Advisory Committee on Art & Architecture to the Irish Episcopal Commission for Liturgy. He is a member of the Royal Institute of British Architects and the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland. He is also a certified liturgical consultant with experience in liturgical design and managing a process of parishioner involvement in the procurement process. He holds a certificate in Building Conservation conferred by the University of Ulster and he is currently studying for a diploma in conservation. Outside of architecture, Mr. Quinn has been involved in a number of diocesan committees and commissions, among them being the advisory sub-committee on church music, the advisory committee on training of the laity, and the diocesan vocations commission”.

    And here is another bit of tripe from the Rooney and McConville webpage on the nature and function of a “liturgical consultant”: How a liturgical Consultant can help
    All Christian communities are on a journey, constantly moving towards the One who is already here and with us. A new or renovated worship space is a milestone on that journey. It can be a time of change, apprehension, growth and renewal. A liturgical consultant is a professional trained to help set your new building in this context of Christian mission.

    A consultant will ensure that your new worship environment not only accommodates your worship needs but also resonates with your tradition and aspirations.

    Usually, this takes the form of a consultation process that has a working committee and parish assemblies at its heart. The process is a guided consultation adapted to and inspired by your community. It helps you reflect on your community’s commitment to follow Christ and how your worship space nourishes that commitment.
    Strange that the name of God is not mentioned and Jesus Christ makes no appearance when speaking of worship. Can one be forgiven for suspecting that we are here dealing with the manipulative school of liturgical fascism?

  • #787392

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    And this one, another home grown product, is the man-who-knows-it-all after a “liturgical” crash course in the Chicago Theological Institute. We are not proposing him for the Will Dowsing prize for acts of arch-vandalism because such would be likely to embarrass the bold Will! Here, of course, we have Brian Quinn the preferred establishment iconoclast and member of the Art and Architecture Committee of the Liturgical Commission of the Irish Episcopal Conference and impresario of the mess at Dromaroad et ailleurs!

    And this is how yer man is described on the webpage of Rooney and McConville: Brian Quinn is an architect and a current member of the Advisory Committee on Art & Architecture to the Irish Episcopal Commission for Liturgy. He is a member of the Royal Institute of British Architects and the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland. He is also a certified liturgical consultant with experience in liturgical design and managing a process of parishioner involvement in the procurement process. He holds a certificate in Building Conservation conferred by the University of Ulster and he is currently studying for a diploma in conservation. Outside of architecture, Mr. Quinn has been involved in a number of diocesan committees and commissions, among them being the advisory sub-committee on church music, the advisory committee on training of the laity, and the diocesan vocations commission”.

    And here is another bit of tripe from the Rooney and McConville webpage on the nature and function of a “liturgical consultant”: How a liturgical Consultant can help
    All Christian communities are on a journey, constantly moving towards the One who is already here and with us. A new or renovated worship space is a milestone on that journey. It can be a time of change, apprehension, growth and renewal. A liturgical consultant is a professional trained to help set your new building in this context of Christian mission.

    A consultant will ensure that your new worship environment not only accommodates your worship needs but also resonates with your tradition and aspirations.

    Usually, this takes the form of a consultation process that has a working committee and parish assemblies at its heart. The process is a guided consultation adapted to and inspired by your community. It helps you reflect on your community’s commitment to follow Christ and how your worship space nourishes that commitment.
    Strange that the name of God is not mentioned and Jesus Christ makes no appearance when speaking of worship. Can one be forgiven for suspecting that we are here dealing with the manipulative school of liturgical fascism?

    Wot’s ‘e wearin’? Is tha’ a donkey jacket? Or a cassock? Or a paramilitary uniform? Looks like ‘e’s standin’ in a draft.

    Augustus Welby Pugin used to wear a cassock around his studio-cum-chapel. Perhaps it put him in a more liturgical mood. Pity he never lived to see The Matrix. With the right pair of sunglasses, Pugin could have turned more than a few heads today.

    At any rate, A. Welby Pugin never had such a sparkling resume as some of these modern-day prodigies, such as you have just read above. Pugin and his disciples could have made a mint as “liturgical consultants.”

    As for Gawd and Jesus and the rest, what business do you have dragging the likes of Them into the fray, Prax? Don’t you know that ‘liturgy’ is all about The People? That means: US! Don’t you get it you old fuddy-duddy, Prax? It’s all about US US US US US. Let’s start with a circle. Or a (baseball) diamond. Liturgy is all about games and fun, and balloons, and space, and air, and US, and COMMEUNITY (and that is how it must be pronounced: with a whine: COMMEUNITY).

    Prax, you need more COMMEUNITY and plenty of time to reflect on the things that are most important: US. You need time in Chicago to come to terms with COMMEUNITY. Find your inner COMMEUNITY. Let there be peace on earth – and let it begin with ME. Send away for a catalogue or visit them online. “It can be a time of change, apprehension, growth and renewal.” Make of it what you will.

    See, Pugin really missed the boat, and not just the ferry to Cobh – I mean the Queen Mary of all boats: liturgical consultancy. After all, as the advert states, “A liturgical consultant is a professional trained to help set your new building in this context of Christian mission.” Poor deluded Pugin! He thought it was all about the Glory of God.

    “Aunt Kate turned fiercely on her niece and said –
    -I know all about the honour of God, Mary Jane ….”

    Aunt Kate knew that liturgy really has to do with US, Aunt Julia, of course, and the rest of US, but most especially US. What part of US don’t you understand?

    So back to poor old Pugin. This glory of God, or honour of God, or what you will is the real fly in the ointment. It was precisely with this in mind that Pugin raised all those nineteenth-century prayer-spaces and liturgical environments that are now proving to be woefully inadequate for ‘twenty-first century liturgy.’ Paddy Jones will tell you so, as he shoves you out of the way to assail your communion rail or tear down a rood screen.

    After your Kool-Aid break, meet US back on the thread.

    And for heaven’s sake, someone turn up the heat – our bucko looks like he’s catching a chill.

  • #787393

    Anonymous

    And here we have another candidate for the title of arch-vandal and already a winner of several categories in the Will Dowsing vandal stakes. Here we have one Jim Killeen, die-hard iconoclast and still hoping to swing the sledge-hammer in the sancturay of Cobh Cathedral so as to make it, what he terms, a 21st century placefor 21st. century liturgy. As the official spokesman for the diocese of Cloyne throughout the Cobh Cathedral controversy, we have become used to his usual fascist guffing. As spokesman, he has been a willing mouthpiece for the dog that bites but dares not bark!

  • #787394

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    And here we have another candidate for the title of arch-vandal and already a winner of several categories in the Will Dowsing vandal stakes. Here we have one Jim Killeen, die-hard iconoclast and still hoping to swing the sledge-hammer in the sancturay of Cobh Cathedral so as to make it, what he terms, a 21st century placefor 21st. century liturgy. As the official spokesman for the diocese of Cloyne throughout the Cobh Cathedral controversy, we have become used to his usual fascist guffing. As spokesman, he has been a willing mouthpiece for the dog that bites but dares not bark!

    Prax, you certainly know how to stack a rogues gallery with an impressive array of grim reapers. This one had better not wield the malleus too enthusiastically lest he find himself end over kettle. Oh for the bygone days of Viking marauders galumphing through the Hibernian countryside whacking off heads of statues and menacing the local populace. Do I discern a rather sinister leer through the gathering gloom?

  • #787395

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    And here we have another candidate for the title of arch-vandal and already a winner of several categories in the Will Dowsing vandal stakes. Here we have one Jim Killeen, die-hard iconoclast and still hoping to swing the sledge-hammer in the sancturay of Cobh Cathedral so as to make it, what he terms, a 21st century placefor 21st. century liturgy. As the official spokesman for the diocese of Cloyne throughout the Cobh Cathedral controversy, we have become used to his usual fascist guffing. As spokesman, he has been a willing mouthpiece for the dog that bites but dares not bark!

    Prax, you certainly know how to stack a rogues gallery with an impressive array of grim reapers. This one had better not wield the malleus too enthusiastically lest he find himself end over kettle. Oh for the bygone days of Viking marauders galumphing through the Hibernian countryside whacking heads off statues and menacing the local populace. Do I discern a rather sinister leer through the gathering gloom?

  • #787396

    Anonymous

    Here we wish to nominate for the WIll Dowsing prize for xtra-special efforts the practice of J.R. Boyd-Barrett for its desolation of the east end of the Cathedral of St. Mary and St Anne in Cork which included the total destruction of the entire neo-gothic retablos erected in George Paine’s 1822 rebuilding of the Cathedral and which contained twenty-seven wooden statues of the Apostles and saints done by John Hogan. This was the sculptor’s first commission which he received from the great bibliophile Bishop of Cork, John Murphy (1772-1847). In 1964 J.H. Boyd-Barret’s “reconstruction” of the east end of the Cathedral saw the removal and disappearance of all of these statues most of which, it seems, were dumped in a storage room and utterly neglected until their “re-discovery” c.2000.

    The same firm was also very active in the diocese of Cloyne during the iconoclastic wave that swept through it in the 1970s and 1980s.

  • #787397

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    Here we wish to nominate for the WIll Dowsing prize for xtra-special efforts the practice of J.R. Boyd-Barrett for its desolation of the east end of the Cathedral of St. Mary and St Anne in Cork which included the total destruction of the entire neo-gothic retablos erected in George Paine’s 1822 rebuilding of the Cathedral and which contained twenty-seven wooden statues of the Apostles and saints done by John Hogan. This was the sculptor’s first commission which he received from the great bibliophile Bishop of Cork, John Murphy (1772-1847). In 1964 J.H. Boyd-Barret’s “reconstruction” of the east end of the Cathedral saw the removal and disappearance of all of these statues most of which, it seems, were dumped in a storage room and utterly neglected until their “re-discovery” c.2000.

    The same firm was also very active in the diocese of Cloyne during the iconoclastic wave that swept through it in the 1970s and 1980s.

    Apart from anything else, the new sanctuary is totally out of proportion with the nave. Surely at least, a decent attempt at the east window could have been made (both in terms of tracery and proportion)? Perhaps one that could at least have been seen in its totality from the west end of the old nave!

    The quality of materials is also questionable, e.g the concrete window dressings seem to be falling apart.

  • #787398

    Anonymous

    @fearg wrote:

    Apart from anything else, the new sanctuary is totally out of proportion with the nave. Surely at least, a decent attempt at the east window could have been made (both in terms of tracery and proportion)? Perhaps one that could at least have been seen in its totality from the west end of the old nave!

    The quality of materials is also questionable, e.g the concrete window dressings seem to be falling apart.

    I wonder myself whether Boyd-Barrett was not trying to emulate in some sort of a perverse vernacular idiom the height distinctions to be seen in some French Cathedrals which have gothic choirs and romanesque naves. If this were the object it is a complete failure and holds up badly to places like Le Mans.

  • #787399

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    I wonder myself whether Boyd-Barrett was not trying to emulate in some sort of a perverse vernacular idiom the height distinctions to be seen in some French Cathedrals which have gothic choirs and romanesque naves. If this were the object it is a complete failure and holds up badly to places like Le Mans.

    If that is the case, at least he did not try and emulate Bayeux, where the choir is pure gothic, but in the Nave they replaced the old romanesque clerstory and vault with a gothic one.. Imagine, the mess we would now have in Cork, if Boyd-Barratt had attempted something like that!

    [ATTACH]4391[/ATTACH]

  • #787400

    Anonymous

    @fearg wrote:

    If that is the case, at least he did not try and emulate Bayeux, where the choir is pure gothic, but in the Nave they replaced the old romanesque clerstory and vault with a gothic one.. Imagine, the mess we would now have in Cork, if Boyd-Barratt had attempted something like that!

    [ATTACH]4391[/ATTACH]

    Boyd-Barrett’s mess in Cork is unimaginable enough as it is….we do not want nightmares!

  • #787401

    Anonymous

    The Will Dowsing prize for sheer devastation is awarded in the gold, silver and bronze categories to Austin P. Flannery, OP, – the man who smashed St. Saviour’s, Domnick Street, Dublin to bits and left it as no cromwellian could have hoped to do.

    Among the utterly deluded this ” Dominican priest ….has been at the centre of progressive thinking in the Irish Catholic Church for more than 4 decades”. More realistic opinion would regard it it as high time to hang up the boots and prepare for the great au-delรƒย  where his particularly progressive form of iconoclasm may well turn out to be a little au-delรƒย  de la tolรƒยฉrance!

    The prize winning iconoclast is seen here on the right:

  • #787402

    Anonymous

    A special category prize in the Will Dowsing stakes goes to the Dublin guru Louis McRedmond for the following assessment of Joe Duffy’s wreckage of Monaghan Cathedral: ” ‘The result,’ says Louis McRedmond, ‘is a reconstruction totally suited to its purpose while consciously respecting the lines and spirit of the old building. Few adaptations have been undertaken on such a scale with such success.’

    Success, I ask you….

    Conscioulsy respecting the lines and spirit of the old building…..are we on the same planet?

  • #787403

    Anonymous

    @praxiteles wrote:

    A special category prize in the Will Dowsing stakes goes to the Dublin guru Louis McRedmond for the following assessment of Joe Duffy’s wreckage of Monaghan Cathedral: ” ‘The result,’ says Louis McRedmond, ‘is a reconstruction totally suited to its purpose while consciously respecting the lines and spirit of the old building. Few adaptations have been undertaken on such a scale with such success.’

    Success, I ask you….

    Conscioulsy respecting the lines and spirit of the old building…..are we on the same planet?

    Anyone ever manage to find a picture of Monaghan before the wreckage?

  • #787404

    Anonymous

    @fearg wrote:

    Anyone ever manage to find a picture of Monaghan before the wreckage?

    We are still waiting. It is truly amazing how impossible it is to find such a picture!

  • #787405

    Anonymous

    This week’s Will Dowsing award goes to Mr. Alex White – a tame member of the Cloyne HACK (so tame indeed that he is also on the Art and Architecture advisory sub committee of the Liturgy Commission of the Irish Episcopal Conference): This is the one who gustily proposed Danny Murphy’s liturgical “justification” for the wreckage of Cobh Cathedral to the Cloyne HACK for unanimous acceptance รƒย  la DDR. It would appear that this jovial walker was more deeply implicated in the wreckage plans than initially realized – he had come to Cobh still flush from the disaster job done on Cork Cathedral. It is now reported that he is still well entrenched in the belief that the proposal for Cobh was a good idea carried out by the best available “minds” and to “highest” professional standards – and that mind you after all that has been said and done. In the citation for the WIll Dowsing prize it would perhaps be good to make a gentle suggestion that Mr. White forget about ecclesiastical architecture and leave it to those who know better. There are, after all, still plenty of holiday bungalows and chippers to be built in West Cork!

  • #787406

    Anonymous

    The Autumn is coming upon us and the time turns to propose the next batch of candidates for the Will Dowsing Arch-vandalism awards for the new season.

    This year we start the ball rolling with one of the more obscure members of the Cloyne HACK, John Lynch, an architect, who worked with McCarthy and Lynch in Cork before it was subsumed into RKD. It will be recalled that the tame Cloyne HACK voted unanimously to accept a crap position paper, cobbled together by the Cloyne liturgical genius, and recommended the gutting of Cobh Cathedral.

    John Lynch was also responsible for the apalling mess done to the interior of St. Nicholas’ Church, Killavullen. However, the Will Dowsing instinct clearly broke out in his plan for the Church of St. Lacteen, Stuake, Donoughmore, Co. Cork.

  • #787407

    Anonymous

    Here is the interior of St. Nicholas, Killavullen, Co. Cork

  • #787408

    Anonymous

    Another candidate for nomiinations for the 2009 Willie Dowsing special hacker awards:

    Jim Killen, the one with famous guff-bite on the BBC describing the essential problem of Cobh Cathedral as having a 19th century sanctuary for a 21st century liturgy – there is an exponent of the radical continuity school for you.

    I amot sure what all the business about the ascent of man is to mean – but our Willie Dowsing candidate is -perhaps not insignificantly – at the wrong end of the line. Or else, it must be some sort of interest in North American Indians.

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