Parnell Square redevelopment

Was there a plan to pedestrianise the square at one point?

There was a plan to take away the railings at one stage aswell, I think.

I thought from the title of the thread that parking was planned for the square 🙂
Good to finally see things happening up there. Where will the plans be on view – the CC Offices?

So has Coláiste Mhuire site has been officially shelved then or is the article induging in a bit of journalistic license?

All will be revealed in a couple of weeks. Any changes to the G of R will have to take in the OPW…I hope this is included in the plans.

I hope the children of lir sculpture and poem on the wall behind is kept in any redevelopment..it’s one of my favourites in the city.

Agreed – at this stage it is in a way as much a commemoration of those who died as it is of the 1966 commemoration itself.
There’s a sense of history in there nearly moreso from 1966.
It is of it’s time and it’s something of a novelty to have a piece of 60s landscaping and architecture in such immaculate condition. Short of the whole square being redeveloped I think it should be left alone.

The essential thing for an improved Parnell Square would be the full engagement of the Rotunda. Hopefully they will co-ordinate the planned major redevelopment of the hospital with the Council’s ideas for the square.

Otherwise the place will remain just as disconnected from the City Centre as it is now.

The Abbey will not be going to Colaiste Mhuire so there is a big opportunity to do something exciting in place of the school – something that will fit in the available space, that is.

Does anyone know anything about the proposal to convert the Wax Museum into a hotel? This will also impact on the future of Parnell Square.

I think this might have been granted….there was scaffolding being assembled there this morning

New Plan announced for Parnell Square
“With the completion of O’ Connell Street next year, we are turning our
attention to Parnell Square which has great potential to become a significant
and attractive cultural destination for Dubliners and tourists” said John
Fitzgerald, City Manager.

A Framework Plan for Parnell Square has been completed by Howley Harrington
Architects on behalf of Dublin City Council in association with the Office of
Public Works, the Rotunda Hospital, The Gate and Academy Theatres, The Dublin
Writers museum and the Abbey Presbyterian Church. The plan, which was
presented today to the Central Area Committee of Dublin City Council, aims to
transform a square which “is undervalued, underused and under performing” and
which also suffers from poor public perception.

Parnell Square will, during the lifetime of the plan, benefit from over €200
million of public and private investment. Dublin City Council has already
begun the €12 million extension to Dublin City Gallery- the Hugh Lane Gallery
which will open early next year. “This Framework plan is ambitious and
visionary – but most of all it is achievable” said John Fitzgerald.

The Plan recommends the following

· Upgrading the Public Domain on all sides of the Square- Footpaths, lighting,
trees and bus lay-bys to be upgraded to the same standards as those prevailing
in O’Connell Street and on-street parking and bus lay-bys to be re-organised.
· An Urban Pergola and Sculpture Promenade on Parnell Square East to stretch
from the Gate to the Abbey Presbyterian Church containing outdoor sculpture.
· Rejuvenating The Ambassador Theatre which could become a cabaret type
theatre with restaurant café and bars.
· Making the Garden of Remembrance more welcoming and accessible with:
o The entrance to the Garden to be improved.
o A new gate from Parnell Square North
o Improved accessibility for all within the park
· Abbey Presbyterian Church (Findlaters’) to be accentuated by extended
pavements and floodlighting
· National Museum of Literature: Improve and expand the existing Dublin
Writers Museum to become a National Museum of Literature
· New anchor use for the Coláiste Mhuire Site possibly a luxury hotel
· New City Childrens Garden and crèche on the Northwest Corner very
appropriately situated beside the Rotunda and Garden of Remembrance. There
will be a new contemporary “Cabbies” shelter built on the location of former
facilities.
·
Rotunda: A new masterplan for the Rotunda hospital to facilitate the
consolidations, expansion and improvement of clinical facilities while
contributing positively to urban design. There was broad agreement with the
Rotunda on the following

o New four story buildings facing on the Parnell Square east and west with
increased car park facilities. The ground floors to have appropriate
commercial and public uses.

o A new public garden, recreating the original garden designed for the centre
of the Square. This garden would be linked to all surrounding streets and to
the Garden of Remembrance. This would create a possible new North South
pedestrian route from the Hugh Lane Gallery, across the Garden of Remembrance,
through the new Rotunda garden and through the historic hospital building onto
Parnell Street.

The Plan is to be implemented in three phases. Phase one, which will take
eighteen months, will include improvements to pavements, roads, parking as well
as installing decorative street lighting and planting trees. This phase also
includes the flood lighting of the Church and the commencement of the
improvements to the Garden of Remembrance entrance. This work will cost €25.6
million including the €12 million already being spent on the extension to the
Hugh Lane Gallery due to open next year. The second and third phases have
longer timescales

Michael Colgan, Director of the Gate Theatre said “Parnell Square was once an
epicentre of cultural life in Dublin because of the vision of one man, The
Rotunda Hospital founder, Dr. Bartholomew
Mosse. He developed the area from nothing to one of the most sophisticated
neighbourhoods in the city where nobility, gentry and ordinary people alike
came to enjoy some of the best music Europe had to
offer as well as a civic area devoted to the patronage of fine arts. Nearly
250 years later, we now have an opportunity for Parnell Square to be restored
to its former purpose and glory”.

Master of the Rotunda , Dr Michael Geary said: “The building of new modern
clinical facilities around the perimeter of the Square will allow the
restoration of the Rotunda Pleasure Gardens in the centre of the Square. This
will enable the Rotunda Hospital to continue its proud tradition of excellent
maternity care throughout the 21st century and beyond and place it as the
central axis of an exciting and improved cultural quarter”.

Klaus Unger, Assistant Principal Architect Office of Public Works said: ” We
aim to make the Garden of Remembrance more welcoming and universally accessible.”

Sean Harrington of Howley Harrington, author of the plan said “Parnell Square
is Dublin’s lost Georgian square. At the end of the great axis running from St
Stephen’s Green through the rejuvenated O’Connell Street northwards the square
has the potential to be the jewel of the north side of Dublin City

This sounds impressive..though the timescale is a bit long (I suppose should be used to that by now). The square always had so much potential, I hope at last some of it will be realised.

i don’t think i’ve ever really seen any of parnell square apart from the g o r

http://dispatch.mapflow.com/lav20a-irl/Dispatch/Map_4380848.jpg

Wow – that’s interesting to see the GoR in plan view. Wonder if such a symbol would be ‘acceptable’ if built today…

The timescale for the Square works is impressive – I think it’s the eastern side though rather than the west that needs the fastest attention – the public domain there is really awful, so windswept and barren. The Georgian fakes are also depressing…

The stepped terrace of houses on the western side always looks great, despite their delapidated condition. Some decent landscaping here is going to make such a difference, but esp on the eastern side.

A planning application has gone up to open a northern entrance to the Garden of Rememberance opposite the Municipal Gallery. The application involves a new gate the creation of an enlarged paved area at street level and steps down either side to the sunken garden. THe proposals are modest but are the first step in the planned revamp of Parnell Square due to start next year and be completed by 2050 (or thereabouts…LOL).

its good to see the Northern Georgian area of the city getting some attention… hopefully in time we will see the whole area getting a much needed makeover

I wish they’d add some sort of an archway as part of the entrance to the Garden of Rememberance….like Stephens Green. It would look far more grand and dignifying than whats there at the moment.

@GregF wrote:

I wish they’d add some sort of an archway as part of the entrance to the Garden of Rememberance….like Stephens Green. It would look far more grand and dignifying than whats there at the moment.

Agreed whats there looks like school railings. Perhaps the Fine Portico that is at the bottom of Catha Brugha Street and looking sad and out of place would look really well.

The Hugh Lane Gallery refurb is almost complete. The glass extension is finished and the crew are just giving teh former National Ballroom a spruce up. The sign was removed and the wood and metal painted but personally I think the brickwork needs some cleaning especially the top which is covered in moss.

Also the Rotunda Hospital announced a development plan for the hospital very much in line with what the overall plan calls for. There’s a long completion time but it is good to see a cohesive strategy taking shape.

Who owns the “Mhuire” now? Was it given back to the state? I think the idea of a luxery hotel is a bit fanciful for that site, although I remember from my schooldays that there is a fairly large upper and lower enclosed yard behind the school and that may help it’s value.

The garden of Rememberance was always a great place to sit outside, it was a nice suntrap and well protected from the wind and the prying eyes of the teachers!

Isn’t the redevelopment of Parnell Sq. a little premature given that we are now in the Transport21 ‘era’ and the Luas route to Broadstone may well go right up O’Connell Street onto Parnell Sq., Granby Row, Western Way and into Broadstone Station to acess the old MGWR alignment that will take the tram on to Liffey Junction (and maybe Finglas post T21)? Should the city council not hold off on this until the Luas route is decided or in place? The Luas link up is likely to be route ‘A’ at this stage and that will make a continuation up O’Connell Street quite possible.

Good news ! Is there a website about the Parnell Square redevelopment ? I thought I came across it once. It had PDF’s etc. Maybe that was the war rememberence thing.

I think most of the streets around O Connell street need a make over TBH. Its a good start though.

http://dispatch.mapflow.com/lav20a-i…ap_4380848.jpg doesnt work btw

http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/Parnell%20Square%20bookletc_tcm35-11289.pdf

I hope the 1916 Memorial Garden will get a decent makeover…..whats there at the moment is seriously lacking. More features and characteristics of such memorials should be included to make it more of a defining monument for the city…ie if grand archway leading into the garden was added would be a start. The recent memorial gardens that were opened in Washington USA to the war dead of WWII is not bad. It has an air of grandeur and solemnity which is needed in such cases.

how much of that framework has actually being implemented ? I think something like the above would be great for the entire area.

Greg that looks like the backdrop to the Eucharistic congress

Just a couple of things from up on the Square.

The replica Georgian on the west side, probably the first ‘genuine’ attempt at such a building in 10 years in the capital, is finally in an advanced stage of construction. Granite sills are in place, and most of the Flemish bond brick is in place, a rare sight nowadays:

A large apartment block is being built to the rear…
Overall the right decision I think given the wider context of the impressive mid-18th century stepped streetscape here.

Unfortunately the rest of the square most certainly is not a hive of activity – still some appalling scenes of dereliction a stone’s throw from the city’s main street:

…not dissimilar to the condition of many other the houses on the Gardniner Estate, as if the Celtic Tiger had never even happened.

Look at the difference with the restored house next door:

Passing the Hugh Lane/Charlemont House before Christmas I couldn’t believe my eyes at the new extension to the building – it is juxtaposing gone completely insane:

The setting of the house, and indeed the building itself has been destroyed by this astonishingly arrogant intrusion. The glazed wall is the epitome of ‘contrastisim’ in all its vulgarity and smug self-confidence: the practice of using ‘daring’ materials in the generation of a juxtaposition of styles to excuse the insertion of pretty much anything into a special, usually historic environment.

The architects Gilroy McMahon say the glazed extension is “the only opportunity we had to advertise what’s going on in here”. Indeed.

I am sick of the ‘cutting edge’ excuse being used in the permitting of historic environments to be invaded on, and this is the practice at its very very worst. Indeed it has little to do with the Georgian environment – of much greater concern is the complete upsetting of the architectural composition of the house and flanking terraces, both in their own right and in the wider context of their uniqueness in the city.

It beggars belief what has been permitted up there – sure why don’t we glaze in the courtyards of the Four Courts while we’re at it, or how about some nice shimmering plates of infill to rid us of those nasty drafty gaps in the colonnade of the Bank of Ireland? We won’t even notice them – sure they’re all modern like, our brains will just blank them out :rolleyes:

GUBU 😡

Yes that extension is too much. It should in no way have come out flush with the house’s facade. That’s really quite shocking … the impact on the integrity of the house is huge …
I don’t recall this going through planning. Was it a Part X application?

Ah yeah….thats the way things work. I thought it looked a bit crass myself. Im not sure if repeating it on the other side might mitigate the obtrusiveness of the original?

Next door the former National Ballroom got a paint job but not much else. I’m looking forward to seeing the whole gallery completed. Its been renamed to the Dublin City Gallery: The Hugh Lane. I quiet liked the sound of Municipal Art Gallery myself!

Moving up to Parnell Street…a hive of activity these days. DCC have a notice up to demolish the three council blocks on Lwr Dominick Street and the corner element on Parnell St. A new mixed use development is going up. Anyone have any idea whats being proposed.

Also that eyesore beside Jurys is being developed – 8 storeys.

And! Mary Harney and Co are set to move to Chapel House (part of the Penneys redevelopment) soon thus vacating poor auld Hawkins House.

I like it , it simple not too showy. Very nicely done ! I particulary approve of it being flush with the main building. Top marks !

If the glazing was built on the other side of the gallery as well, it might have turned out better.

Gilroy McMahon are losing their touch

I don’t think it’s necessarily their fault – there’s only so many ways you can handle a bit of fancy glazing. It is the demands of their client that must be called into question, and the decision taken by planners, i.e. it is the very concept of filling in one side of the house that matters rather than how it is executed.

Obviously glazing is going to be adopted over solid elements as a given in such circumstances, so the architect is largely just left with the choice of what glazing to use – of marginal importance in the broader context of deciding to fill in the gap in the first place. The transparency of the finished structure to the top is very appealing, and the glazing has a certain finesse, but that’s not the point.

Also, the raw exposure of structural elements like the stairs and the internal walls is horribly crass for such a decorous set-piece. Such brutal ‘honesty’ is usually confined to interiors of historic complexes and generally works exceedingly well, but here it’s many more times invasive out of doors where there’s nothing else for it to interact with, and also you’ve no choice but to look at it.
Agreed Collins Barracks works very well, but here it should not have been permitted. Yes there was a small nasty extension here bofore the glazing that was less than pleasant, but it had nowhere near the impact that this structure does. And it was set back.

I hear what you are saying but suspect that Gilroy McMahon have probably turned down work in the past that they may have considered would risk their once flawless reputation.

Charlemont House was my favourite Georgian house on the northside….they’ve ruined the facade. This bloody country…

It’s a great extension.By being in line with the main building it highlights it wonderfully. Honestly Mr. Hickey how can you want glazing on the one hand , and complain that you can see through it ?

The glazing is a simple as possible. You can see that it is even held up from inside the structure.

If the extension was set back it would draw your attention to it. Instead as it is it focuses all eyes on the main building. It being so simple and different from the original work I can apreciate the old by itself , the new extension , and the two together.

It was a very very good idea to extend the gallery. It has saved a fine georgian building.

I would like to see the gallery extend to the left building in the future.Indeed It could be argued that the Hugh Lane should take over most of that side of the square .

TOP MARKS !!!

The Hugh Lane is a great little gallery too with some fine works mainly from the impressionist era. It is a great liitle treasure to have on the north side of the city here. Fair play to Hugh Lane, who tragically drowned when the Luisitania was sank by the Germans. He bequeathed many paintings to the gallery in Dublin and theres wrangling going on to this day over more paintings still held by London. Francis Bacon’s studio the latest major aquisition. There’s Monets, Manets, Renoirs and Courbets to see as well as modern Irish painters. Check out the impasto of Mancini paintings.

Bottom Marks from me!!

The graceful symmetry has been completely destroyed. Why they couldn’t just leave it be.

Thomond Park is running a book:

Extension removed within 5 years 12/1

Extension removed within 5-10 years 3/1

Extension removed within 10-15 years 6/4

Extension removed within 15-20 years 6/4

Extension not removed within 20 years 2/1

The juxtaposition works for me. There’s nothing I dislike more than a modern extension to an old building either trying too hard to be sympathetic thus losing any integrity of it’s own, or lurking in the set-back shadows trying to pretend it isn’t there.
At least this extension has it’s own quality whilst clearly allowing the original facade to dominate the composition. A symmetrical extension on the other side would obviously be of beneifit so let’s hope that that’s in the medium term plans for the gallery.

Pity to see this extension tacked on I think. The glass wall does look well if considered on its own, but is not particularly well suited as an addition to such a stand-alone building. Symmetry was an essential element of Georgian design & the building has now been thrown off balance, which is a shame. 🙁

Here’s a picture – pre modification – taken in early 2005.

Yes, well put DJM.

I’ve just shrunk your picture so that it fits a bit better in the screen.
.

Yeah sorry I couldn’t manage to shrink it myself – i did try!! :confused:

I seem to remember visiting a thread that dealt with how to submit & modify photos, I had a load of pics for the Henrietta St thread, but their capacity was way too big, so I could’nt post them.

Could someone please re-direct me, as I can no longer find my way 😮

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

Just a quick and dirty version of it knocked back a bit
not perfect but you get the idea

I think this shows what is built is the very best solution. In this photomontage the extension just add another depth to the building. It appears even more unbalanced to me.

It is also clear that the extension could not be hidden.

To those who really hate it It probably won’t really matter. Often when these kinds of additions are built, they become a handy place to put addvertisement posters for the gallery. With a poster each side , daaaadaaa! balance restored.

I think you’re misrepresenting the situation a boyle. It is not the use of glazing that offends, nor is it the absence of ‘sympathetic’ solid elements BTH suggested earlier; rather it is the imbalance created at the location but much more so (in my view anyway) the blatent intrusion that it is into this historic enclosure. Nothing ought to have been built – end of story. To build yet another extension to the other side is merely adding insult to injury.

And yes you’re quite right, advertising banners no doubt will be tacked onto it over time. Just as one thing leads to another, the previous inappropriate extension to the right-hand side acted as an excuse to further intensify the site with this glazed extension, which in turn may permit another extension to be built to the other side, which in turn will no doubt permit tacky ‘oh but they’re only temporary’ banners to be suspended on this most historic and architecturally significant set-piece.

And to be clear about the glazing, to be able to see through the top part of the facade through the ceiling beyond to the sky is what I was referring to previously as being of merit, not the exposure of a utilitarian stairwell and the sneaky masking of an extension jutting out from the National Ballroom.

This unique setting in Dublin of a mansion house framed by flanking purpose-designed terraces ought not have been touched with a barge-pole. This fashionable concept of inserting new structures into highly sensitive locations simply on the basis of their ‘radical’ materials has reached ridiculous proportions at Charlemont House – the idea having garnered acceptability amongst the architectural elite is now flung at nearly every project going, almost as a requirement in order to give the ‘conservation’ project a certain dazzle and get the tongues wagging. Some of it will be regretted into the future, and is sorely so already in this instance.

@DJM wrote:

Could someone please re-direct me, as I can no longer find my way 😮

This one, or this one is better.

If you’re inserting an image (as you did above) rather than linking to an image hosted elsewhere (Photobucket etc.) you must first change the size wherever you have it stored on your computer. Can’t be changed once it’s been inserted, I don’t think.
If it’s linked from a hosting site you can play around with it there and any changes to the image on the hosting site will be reflected in the image here, including moving or removing the file in your account.

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It’s interesting how much of a difference that set-back picture makes. I still think the glazed section is a mistake, but at least set back the edge of the main house is clearly visible and the facade reads as a symmetrical whole rather than the lob-sided affair that we’ve been left with now.:( The balancing section to the left is pretty urgent now. Perhaps that was the intention all along?

I don’t see how extending the gallery in this manner ‘saved a fine Georgian building.’ It was hardly derelict before, and not having this extension wouldn’t have meant the wrecking ball…

@Graham Hickey wrote:

This unique setting in Dublin of a mansion house framed by flanking purpose-designed terraces ought not have been touched with a barge-pole. This fashionable concept of inserting new structures into highly sensitive locations simply on the basis of their ‘radical’ materials has reached ridiculous proportions at Charlemont House – the idea having garnered acceptability amongst the architectural elite is now flung at nearly every project going, almost as a requirement in order to give the ‘conservation’ project a certain dazzle and get the tongues wagging. Some of it will be regretted into the future, and is sorely so already in this instance.

I really have to disagree here Graham, the choice in this case was fairly stark: Build the extension and allow the Hugh Lane Gallery to expand, or leave the building as it was and force the Hugh Lane Gallery to either find another, larger home or to split the collection between two buildings. To suggest that this intervention is down to “fashion” or to create “dazzle” is quite misleading as it suggests that the extension is somehow frivolous or unnescessary.

I also think people are forgetting what was there before work started on the building – a big blank plastered wall. Obviously the image of the building with nothing on either side of the townhouse is the most attractive but I think that the Gilroy Mcmahon addition strikes a good balance between practicality and aesthetics and most importantly ensures the future of the Hugh Lane Gallery on it’s current site.

Personnaly I see the extention as a mistake, not say that there should’nt have been an extenstion rather it could have been done in a more sensitive manor. The house and its surrounds are a unit, considering that it is largly an eightheen century terrance of houses with Charlemont at its centre.

This intervention is arogent in its use of materails and in particular the way it is almost flush with the facade.The house is now lob sided.

A recent intervention to leinster house to the area flanking it shows much more thought and sympathy for an historic context.

@crestfield wrote:

Personnaly I see the extention as a mistake, not say that there should’nt have been an extenstion rather it could have been done in a more sensitive manor. The house and its surrounds are a unit, considering that it is largly an eightheen century terrance of houses with Charlemont at its centre.

This intervention is arogent in its use of materails and in particular the way it is almost flush with the facade.The house is now lob sided.

A recent intervention to leinster house to the area flanking it shows much more thought and sympathy for an historic context.

I don’t agree, leinster house now looks busy to me , as result of the stone’s youth and that it doesn’t exactly match the original stone, it shouts for attention. But i think we shall just have to disagree. All buildings (except the truly dire) are Marmite.

I think crestfield may be referring to the extension to Leinster Lawn(?), in which case I would agree.

@BTH wrote:

To suggest that this intervention is down to “fashion” or to create “dazzle” is quite misleading as it suggests that the extension is somehow frivolous or unnecessary.

A fair point BTH, though that was not my intention. However to claim that fashion does not play a part is to discard the fact that the use of features such as this uber-sheek glazing is made acceptable by these very trends. Were it not fashionable to use it – as it wouldn&#8217]own site[/b] says: “the design for Charlemont House was unique in that it provided a majestic centrepiece for the streetscape and was unrivalled in Irish Georgian squares.”
This beautiful architectural composition has been destroyed 😡

22/6/2006

Well after many years of dereliction, the three Georgian townhouses at 49-51 Parnell Square have finally been rebuilt, and are currently nearing completion.
A typical Dublin scene until recently, there was nothing here other than a weed-strewn site surrounded by palisade railings, a straggling remnant of an 18th century doorcase, and ubiquitous timber supports buttressing the neighbouring house; this photograph dates from as late as c.1998:

Designated a tax-incentiveised site in the O’Connell Street IAP as part of Site Cluster No. 2 which encompasses this whole western side of Parnell Square, the Plan stated: “This square was designed as an architectural entity, and the correct solution for this site is to build a facsimile of the previous design. The design should be a scholarly work, undertaken by an architect qualified in architectural conservation or with proven experience in conservation work.”

It is most satisfying to observe that this objective has been achieved in its entirety.
Here is the terrace today:

(apologies for the buses)

The difference the infill has made to the terrace is extraordinary; it immediately unifies it once again, replacing the missing tooth that for so long blemished this impressive sloping Georgian streetscape, also concealing the hideous side elevation of the opposing replica townhouse. No doubt this is what was proposed for this site originally – indeed when were these houses demolished, and by whom? No mention was ever made in The Destruction of Dublin, in contrast to all of the demo jobs highlighted on Cavendish Row.

Some views of the new ‘houses’ – currently being marketed as suitable for medical or office use.

The brick is a bit pink, but will tone down with time; most Dublin red brick was probably this colour originally.
As far as can be made out, they replicate the former houses pretty much exactly, including the different types of doorcase and window courses. Anyone got a pic of the original houses?

They seem to be late rather than mid-18th century in design; it’s hard to say, especially given the Gardiners’ fondness for a lack of flights of steps which usually helps in identifying in other parts of the city. The brick courses of the far left house and the right-hand pair have been deliberately mismatched to separate the structures as originally built; the brick itself also seems to subtly differ in colour between the two.

The chimneys are eh, unusual in design. One slight objection perhaps is the use of red brick which is not very common either in colour or in being exposed in this part of the city – the rest of the terrace’s chimneys are pretty much all rendered over now, or of stock brick. These new ones do stand out a bit as a result, giving them something of a Zoe quality…

Still, they look well even if a bit false. Otherwise the attention to detail has been superb, even extending to shuttering for the windows that you can see in the above picture. The sashes are of course perfect – not a horn to be seen : )

They are also single-glazed by the looks of things, and individually paned to give them the traditional light-flashing quality.
Even the vents are decorative, if overly so for Georgian ironwork.

They also ought to be painted a more subtle colour – they stand out too regimentally on the facade:

As posted before, here’s what it all should look like including doorcases and railings:

A job exceedingly well done job. There’s a modern office buiulding inserted to the rear of the houses, and a stack of apartments going in in a semi-separate development further down the lane – the upper floors of the houses are probably apartments too. However I do think that these buildings have more integrity than most replicas by virtue of the domestically scaled interiors; this doesn’t appear to be a concrete office block with suspended ceilings covering the windows, all shrouded in red brick, but rather there’s a certain synergy taking place between the interiors and exterior – they credibly relate to each other with minimum, if any, contrivance in an attempt to make it work. Also the houses replicate as best as possible what was originally on the site – there is a connection to the location and wider context in this respect, and a relevance in design.

Unfortunately out of the nine designated site clusters identified in the IAP, this is the sole project to either have been started or successfully executed, with Parnell Street sites still lying idle, the Carlton Cinema in limbo, shopfronts and facades yet to be touched on O’Connell Street, Marlborough Street sites and terraces still a shambles, and the Eden Quay Laughter Lounge and to a lesser extent Schuh building developments hardly what the IAP drafters had in mind as sensitive regenerations.

The Parnell Square houses are encouraging progress however, especially if they were stimulated by the incentives. Parnell Street West is definitely next on the list – what a disaster zone.

Definately one for the anti-“pastiche” brigade. That is an excellent pice of work and extremely important for the Georgian city. It shows that facimiles (a much better word) at sensitive sites can work. I would like to see similar for the gap in Harcourt Street. Stephens Green Hotel recently proposed a starkly modern design but I think it was withdrawn. A replica would be much more suitable.

I am pretty sure I will be on my own here on this, but I really think that there is enough architectural difference between the various houses on this square to have allowed a modern infill on this site. I don’t agree that the square was designed as an architectural entity, and I therefore believe that a design that fitted in to its surrounings in terms of scale, proportions and materials should have been sought. It was a mistake that the original buildings here were allowed to fall into disprepair and eventually be taken down (Fall down? Knocked down?), but that cannot be undone.

Incidently, I recently noticed that the National Ballroom Dancing sign is gone from the North side of the square. I personally think this is a pity, as it was part of that building and part of the history of the square.

As a general comment I think present thinking on our Georgain heritage is attempting to fashion everything as it might have been during that period, instead of respecting these buildings and areas as spaces that have lived through history.

Don’t know about everyone else, but I’ll have to disagree, phil. Sure, there wasn’t uniformity as such, but I think reinstating these three was the right decision.

One observation, though: I’m not sure that the second floor windows should have been 12 pane sashes (6 over 6). Wouldn’t 9 panes (3 over 6) have been better?

If the discussion is then about reproducing what was there before, I would question the extent to which this has actually been done, or is possible. Your windows question probably illustrates this in that it is impossible to reproduce exactly what was there originally anyway, so therefore something original but in keeping with its surrounding context might have been a better response to the site. Bear in mind that I am not trying to propose a solution that would have stood out in contrast to the terrace, but merely stating that through properly thought out design a solution can be found that does not rely on attempted replication alone.

@phil wrote:

If the discussion is then about reproducing what was there before, I would question the extent to which this has actually been done, or is possible. Your windows question probably illustrates this in that it is impossible to reproduce exactly what was there originally anyway, so therefore something original but in keeping with its surrounding context might have been a better response to the site. Bear in mind that I am not trying to propose a solution that would have stood out in contrast to the terrace, but merely stating that through properly thought out design a solution can be found that does not rely on attempted replication alone.

Yes i agree but not here. There are three places which need pastiche : fitzwilliam square and street , parnell and mountjoy square. I do think that the uniformity of goergian (pretend of otherwise) is crucial in these three areas.

All the other streets could probably accomodate modern infill. I certainly think a striking modern building could look well on harcourt street. note use of the word could!

What I think is often forgotten in Dublin is that much of the uniformity comes from the rythm and proportions of the buildings, not necessarily the replication of features. Parnell Square is probably the best example of this.

Please also note, as I have already said, that I am not proposing a ‘striking modern building’, but simply something that has more of a contemporary stamp.

I disagree. Personally I find the current popular viewpoint of insisting on a contemporary stamp on absolutely everything rather irritating – in other countries there seems to be a post post-modern 🙂 thinking, arguably a maturity of sorts, that deems reproduction buildings in sensitive locations like this to be not only desirable, but preferable to contemporary designs – notable to an (admittedly over-) extent in UK housing, and terraced housing located within conservation areas there, and for many years at that.

As far as I remember Phil, you don’t agree with this type of building because it simply does not reflect our times and sets out to skew our relationship with and perceptions of our building stock (sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth). However for me, this type of construction does the exact opposite: it reflects our times and current thinking regarding use of reproduction in a nutshell – surely these houses faithfully rebuilt on this site are a monument to our times and current thinking re sensitive infill? In 20/40/50/100 years time will they not stand as such?

I don’t accept that a new-build building here could have worked as well. Certainly I agree it would have been a challenge to any architect, and an innovative and sensitive contemporary design could have been created, but this does not eliminate the intrusive impact on the terrace as a whole. To insert a modern building here in the middle of an 18th century terrace, however considerate and sympathetic, would have smacked to me of a certain ridiculousness, almost as if ‘sorry, this is all we can do for this site I’m afraid – we’re constrained by current Irish architectural thinking in what we can build’, ignoring the wider impact on the terrace. To almost any person, however ill-educated in this respect, the logical thing to do is to rebuild the previous houses – it just makes sense. We don’t always have to make a statement, however subtle.

I think it important as StephenC pointed out , it is fairer to call these houses examples of facsimilies or reconstructions, not pastiche. As pastiche is a word you use for the crap churned out a long the quays in particular, and countless other examples else where in the city. The Parnell Sq. houseses may have their critics but there quality can’t be disputed.

Even if the houses are not a coordinated unit and of differing ages, they don’t differ by 200 years in age and were all built as houses in mush the same format, thus are unit with an individual streak. To put a contemporary building in would be like building a Georgian house in La Defence.

So whats say we start polishing the demolition ball for the ESB offices on Fitzwilliam St. and undo one of the worst wrongs of modern Dublin developemnt.

demolishing esb would be great but methinks it could only happen with government money . Otherwise i think recladding is the best that will happen.

Why are the bases of the first floor windows not aligned in the two buildings on the right?

And do these facsimiles have copies of the original interior room layouts? Do they have the same plasterwork? Where was the line drawn?

The windows appear to be mimicking the original houses, when in the late 18th century it was quite common to extend your old first floor windows down to the floor. It’s also possible that the developer who built these two houses lived in one and rented out the other – a typical Georgian practice – and so installed expensive to-floor windows in his reception rooms, but went for the cheaper option for his nest-egg development next door.
Less romantically, there could be an air con unit behind, necessitating the discrepancy 🙂

As for the interiors and room layouts, it’s hard to say at the minute. From what little can be seen through the first floor windows, there’s standard-issue architraving round the doors up there anyway. I doubt the rooms match exactly, though Georgian rooms are pretty logical to begin with so it may have turned that they match regardless.

Indeed just looking at the rendering of the development, the window-extending explanation seems the most likely, with the openings lengthened and iron balconies added maybe in the Regency period.

It’s possible they’re original to the 18thC build too though – just Georgian balconies were pretty rare.

@Graham Hickey wrote:

I disagree. Personally I find the current popular viewpoint of insisting on a contemporary stamp on absolutely everything rather irritating – in other countries there seems to be a post post-modern 🙂 thinking, arguably a maturity of sorts, that deems reproduction buildings in sensitive locations like this to be not only desirable, but preferable to contemporary designs – notable to an (admittedly over-) extent in UK housing, and terraced housing located within conservation areas there, and for many years at that.

As far as I remember Phil, you don’t agree with this type of building because it simply does not reflect our times and sets out to skew our relationship with and perceptions of our building stock (sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth). However for me, this type of construction does the exact opposite: it reflects our times and current thinking regarding use of reproduction in a nutshell – surely these houses faithfully rebuilt on this site are a monument to our times and current thinking re sensitive infill? In 20/40/50/100 years time will they not stand as such?

Of course they won’t stand out as much in 100 years. But then again does anyone ever comment on the victorian house at the end of Fitzwilliam Street? It seems to have blended into the terrace over the years because of its proportions and scale. I am sure there are features on some of those houses that would have stuck out like sore thumbs to our Georgian ancestors, such as elongated windows :D, that have eventually become part and parcel of what the square is.

In terms of my reasoning against this type of building I would have to say that I have actually mellowed with age regarding reproduction of past forms ;). I think that if houses in a terrace that are completely uniform are desroyed for some reason, then due to their role in the whole architectural ensemble their facade should match the surroundings when rebuilt. However, as I have already said about Parnell Square, there seems to have been enough variation within the buildings to have allowed a building of similar proportions and scale to have been built on this site without detracting from the overall character of the terrace. I am not saying that something like that monstrosity on the corner of Bolton Street and Henrietta Street should have been built here, but merely pointing to the fact that it is possible to add to a historic streetscape without creating a reproduction of the original facades.

These 3 new buildings are the best replica-Georgian buildings yet built in Dublin. It’s so refreshing to see it done right, compared to some of the excrement that’s been put in to sensitive Georgian areas over the past 30+ years in the name of ‘Georgian replica’ ….. the DIT college on Mountjoy Square South comes to mind.

And as said the internal room proportions looking onto the square have been maintained, which is important.

I too think it was the only thing that could or should have been done here, especially when see that amazing long, intact terrace of Georgian houses stepping up the west side of the square in Graham’s picture above (but phil I agree with your point that ‘it is possible to add to a historic streetscape without creating reproduction facades’ – just depends on the location).

Lovely crisp limestone doorcases are now being installed.

It is now clear that the far left new house is the last building in a terrace of matching houses built by a Georgian developer – its fanlighted doorcase has just been installed, perfectly matching the neighbouring house as visible in Devin’s post above. It looks like Portland stone, but has a strange hue to it and a very smooth finish, perhaps suggesting reconstituted stone considering it may well be painted.

The new pair of matching houses to the right seem to have been built as a seperate scheme originally, and will have matching exposed limestone doorcases as pictured.

Do you think the ESB/Government will ever replace the Georgian terrace that once existed on Merrion Sq.? If they did, it would create the longest Georgian street in the world, would it not?

perhaps. propably not.

@Morlan wrote:

Do you think the ESB/Government will ever replace the Georgian terrace that once existed on Merrion Sq.? If they did, it would create the longest Georgian street in the world, would it not?

It’d be the longest Georgian/fake Georgian street in the world then.

Work seems to have already begun on opening the G of R from the north, can it really be so fast?

Yup – in fact it started a few months ago notjim.
The plans seem to have changed a bit from the direct gated entrance and flight of steps depicted in the Framework Plan. Now I think you walk through a gate onto an elevated railed platform which overlooks the garden, with access then gained via flights of steps sited at each side.

Does anyone have information on how things are progressing at the square? Thanks.

They’re not. I imagine the DCC will wait until September to get things moving although I understood that the CC had extended the contract of the group undertaking the O’Connell Street works to complete Parnell Square. I also understood that the final proposals for the Square were to go on public display but I never heard anything more.

Cheers for that, hopefully there’ll be some movement soon!

is this new?

http://www.dublincity.ie/press_news/press_releases/pr_-_parnell_square.asp

http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/Parnell%20Square%20bookletc_tcm35-11289.pdf

more trees down in the garden of remembrance, what is it with street planners and wanting to replace everything with paving slabs? they easily put an entrance in the back without cutting a corner out of the park

where does it say anything about cutting down trees in the GoR? i love this report, its so clever and ambitious.

@lostexpectation wrote:

is this new?

more trees down in the garden of remembrance, what is it with street planners and wanting to replace everything with paving slabs? they easily put an entrance in the back without cutting a corner out of the park

No the plan has been around for a while now. You should read back a few pages. The plan for the north-west corner (Im assuming thats what you refer to) is for a small children playground if I am not mistaken. The new entrance to the GofR (currently under con struction ) is opposite the Hugh Lane

that playground seems like a really nice idea. it is about time that effort was put into making the city a better place to live and raise families, otherwise there will be no way to reverse the suburb mindset of people.

@a boyle wrote:

that playground seems like a really nice idea. it is about time that effort was put into making the city a better place to live and raise families, otherwise there will be no way to reverse the suburb mindset of people.

its going to very small, on that corner with a taxi rank nearby, a supposed hotel across the street,its not like its a residential area, what children are actually going to play there, that can’t play in the rotundas garden, the refugees from the hostels across the street.

it is a start.

and what’s wrong with refugee children using a playground?

I agree with Notjim. The building of a playground might indicate just how many children there are living in this area in need of a facility like this. Good to see it being given such a central location.

I agree too… how many parents shopping with the kids on Henry Street (and of course the soon to expand O’Connell Street) would like to skip off to a playground with the kids for an hour to relax. Kids running wild about the GofR is not really in keeping with the idea behind the garden. Parnell Street is meant to be developed as a cultural destination for all dubs, kids included. I think a playground here is a great idea.

Just a picture from the site’s hoarding of the new entrance to the Garden of Remembrance, currently under construction:

@a boyle wrote:

that playground seems like a really nice idea. it is about time that effort was put into making the city a better place to live and raise families, otherwise there will be no way to reverse the suburb mindset of people.

A lot of the suburbs don’t have many playgrounds either. Amazing how there seems to be more golf courses than playgrounds in this country. New to this fatherhood thing so starting to notice things like playgrounds……

@anto wrote:

….New to this fatherhood thing so starting to notice things like playgrounds……

Congratulations – I bet the next thing you’re due to notice is the dog poo everywhere!

17/11/2006

The houses are finished.

Including the balconies as originally positioned:

Lovely traditional delicate design for the smaller house, while the larger one oddly features a modern pattern?

All the shiny bolts need to be painted – something for the snag list.

Also magnificent iron flourishes on the corners of the railings:

…if perhaps a little off in scaling? Maybe it’s just the large gate next to it.

I don’t think we’ve seen such attention to detail with railings in any reproduction in thirty years.

The completed doorcase of one of the two principal houses, with perhaps a little OTT Regency furniture:

(have a fanlight detail later)

The smaller far left-hand replica, the final house in a series of similar Georgian houses, has had an excellent reproduction doorcase installed:

An expert eye would be able to verify, but it would appear to be reconstitued stone given its very smooth surface, not to mention the complex detailing that would cost a fortune to execute in natural stone.

As can be seen, it’s not identical to the one next door, but most of the doorcases in these smaller houses seem to have replaced the 18th century originals, given their current Regency character. This would fit with the fact that Gardiner’s developments tended to attract fashion conscious merchant classes rather than stodgy old money. The amount of replacemnt plate glass about is also telling.

The door surround of this house and some brickwork did survive the demolitions though – alas it doesn’t seem to have been incorporated into the new building. But overall a job exceedingly well done. Top marks to those responsible.

They look excellent … I have high hopes for Parnell Sq and look forward to seeing how work on the G of R unfolds..

I think they were done by Cosgrave Property Group, who are doing the development in behind them, which is probably why they look so good

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0612/6news_av.html?2258278,null,230

not sure tha link will work tmw

The old Ierne Ballroom is back in business.

what building is this exactly? looked nice enough although the roof up high looked like cheep polystrene squares type roof which sort of ruined the grandeur

On the same side as Cassidy’s Hotel that leads up to North Fredrick Street (Waltons Music Shop) near the Companies office.

You probably wont see it because of the Bus Terminus in front of it!

10/9/2007

Well the OPW interventions to the Garden of Remembrance are nearing completion.

The crisp smooth granite does stand out against the rubble limestone finishes of the Garden – maybe it’ll tone down in time. Indeed it doesn’t seem to want to ape the character of the Garden at all.

The lighting columns are crisp and modern – oddly like pieces of a television set.

An element of the original 1960’s design has been incorporated into the pattern on the glazed blaustrading.

Beautiful handrail detailing.

Presumably all of this will be replicated on the other side of the Garden when the Rotunda’s newly opened grounds link directly into it.

While we’re here, there’s a great installation in the entrance hall of the Hugh Lane at the minute.

All pieces are individually suspended, making for a beautifully natural installation that’s freakily alive!

Partially funded as it happens by the O’Connell Street IAP Community Gain Fund.

Last year’s repainting is still as crisp and elegant as the day it was finished too.

What was wrong with the GoR the way it was? The addition of the new north gate makes sense on a certain intuitive level: it opens the square, improves pedestrian accessibility, ushers in a new cultural quarter etc etc, but it seems in doing so the integrity of the original design has been compromised.

So maybe I can save myself half a minute cutting through from the east side of Parnell Square to the Hugh Lane, wonderful, I’ll get my cup of coffee that much quicker, but I’m going to miss the symmetry that was implied in the single entrance at the base of the cross, the ‘IN’ on one side and ‘OUT’ on the other, the Oisin Kelly sculpture as a central fixture. . . Say what you will about improved accessiblity but there was something wonderfully reverent about the original design and concept, suggestive of, say, a stations of the cross. It may be a small, symbolic detail, but an important one nonetheless. Ah well. Changed, changed utterly as the man said.

It’s a concern most of us have I think. There was always something faintly sacrificial – not quite the word, but the right one’s just not coming at the minute – about there only being one way in and one way out. You had to make a commitment to entering the place; leave the outside world behind for a few moments. It’s just that bit more self-conscious now, more populist, more Celtic-Tigeresque – more bland.

I do see the point of providing access north-south through the Garden: Parnell Square is soon to be revolutionised with a central garden surrounded by new four-storey Rotunda buildings – all linking into the Garden of Remembrance at the top.

It’s just too tempting an opportunity not to do something on the new axis, but I can’t help thinking that something more discrete was in order as regards the design of the entrances.

29/9/2007

This might as well go here given how the Square feeds into Parnell Street.

The ‘down-at-heel’ envirnment that characterises Parnell Street is well known, even the recently developed areas, but the eastern end of the street is still stuck in the 1980s. It hasn’t been touched by the boom years, and remains the decrepit backwater it has been for the latter part of the 20th century.

This is the reason it was included in the O’Connell Street IAP, was designated an ACA, and sited in an Area of Special Planning Control. It was also because of its second-rate state that the street was given special site cluster designation, with the entire stretch of buildings from O’Connell Street to Marlborough Street tax-incentivised for redevelopment and refurbishment. The ACA also requires that “all new buildings should be designed to the highest standard in a modern architectural idiom. Pastiche will be discouraged and will only be allowed or required in exceptional circumstances.”

And yet the very first of these sites to be (finally) redeveloped, and it gets this.

I kid you not. Notwithstanding basic common sense, even with every development control a planning authority can be afforded in this state this utter rubbish is allowed through the system. It is a shocking indictment of the state of planning in the city.

And what is particularly offensive to the citizen or indeed resident of this building is the enormous dividend handed on a plate to the developer by DCC in the form of this mammothly-scaled development, of which only a tiny fraction actually requires architectural treatment – and yet this is the tight-fisted, mean-spirited veneer of muck presented as the sole public face of the development. What an insult to the city.

Its all-singing upturned finger character on the streetscape is fitting.

And to add insult to injury, tax-payers’ money actually went into subsidising this scheme, a development that was worth a fortune in the first instance. And what did the city get back? Abolutely nothing. The developer wins again.

Meanwhile the important collection of decrepit mid-18th century townhouses directly adjoining it have just a ‘face-lift’. You couldn’t make this up if you tried.

It’s just unbelieveable: all protected structures, in an ACA.

Ravishing.

The adjoining Georgians at the junction with O’Connell Street are also in bits as ever.

So much potential here. And in terms of the architectural hertiage of this part of the city, these facades are almost as significant as the RDH townhouse on O’Connell Street.

An intriguing little gem next door.

Rare Wyatt windows.

An entire streetscape that sorely needs attention. Given these facades can’t be given the developer treatment, I suppose neglect is the appropriate period building equivalant.

😮 The true cost to the city however is the sad loss of Fibber Magees’ beer garden, once the biggest and rockingest outdoor drinking spot in town. So many memories….:(

Hmmmm. The red block is a missed opportunity alright. Why oh why is the council not getting developers to bring form and finish up to par where bulk and mass is being permitted? The same has been let happen at the corner of Granby Row, while for anybody who wants to see a real horror story, just get in and inspect the recent ten story block of apartments on the corner of Moore St and Parnell St, designed by Tony Reddy’s firm IIRC… It’s well worth having a look; given that such bulk was permitted the standards within are really second-rate – awkward angles greet the visitor at the entrance hall, non-opening windows are not self-cleaning from what I can tell, lifts are tiny given the amount of people that they’re to serve, long dark corridors that were already smelling of dampness prior to final comletion, and a ‘penthouse’ apartment where the ceiling is at the same relatively low height as the rest of the apts. Remarkable. The only slightly edeeming feature in my book are the razor-edged metal plaques erected on the Moore St gates, commemorating the 1916 leaders; its just unfortunate that the gates themselves slam closed at all times of day and night – very nice for the residents overhead, I’m sure :rolleyes:

Returning to Parnell Square itself, the new access point facing the Hugh Lane Municipal Gallery is indeed a welcome improvement. The attention to detail in terms of the etched glass reflecting the motifs is a nice touch, and all round it seems to work very well. I am also glad that DCC didn’t try to do anything overly “radical” which may have botched up (such as happened with the former park at St Marys outside the Jervis Centre). So hats off to the architects in DCC on this one; sensitively handled it should be a real success 🙂

@GrahamH wrote:

Regarding the proposals for renewing the square as a whole, I was impressed by this plan when regeneration was first planned. The idea of erecting hospital buildings along the east and west perimeter in exchange for returning the middle of the square to use as gardens seemed a very sensible and smart idea. However given the development of the National Childrens Hospital being planned for Eccles Street, it would appear likely that it will become the maternity hospital – superceding the Rotunda]not builld[/I] along the perimeter, and instead return Bartolemew Mosse’s Pleasure Gardens as a real amenity to Dubliners. It’s not as if the north inner city has much green space anyway; Mountjoy Square and King’s Inns front at Constitution Hill add up to relatively little when compared to the area of Merrion Square, Stephens Green, Iveagh Gardens, St Patricks etc. Even at present part of what was the park at Sean MacDermot St/ Gardiner St is being built upon – so all in all a real shortage of publically accessible green space in the north inner city, hence the case for really trying to restore the amenity aspect of Parnell Square to it’s maximum. Any takers?

Why do you think the Rotunda will close? The new NCH at the Mater will replace Temple Street hospital. Its not planned to be a maternity hospital.

Don’t you expect the maternity hospitals to be co-located?

Is this redevolpement going ahead. This thread is 3 years old and all we have is a new canopy over the rotunda’s main enterence. No trees no reduction in parking no granite paving no improved bus bays

I was going to post this up for busman on the College Green / O’Connell St. thread and then the Parnell Square thread turns up. Better again!

If there was a bus equivalent of the train-spotter, Parnell Square would be the equivalent of Crewe.

@cgcsb wrote:

Is this redevolpement going ahead. This thread is 3 years old and all we have is a new canopy over the rotunda’s main enterence. No trees no reduction in parking no granite paving no improved bus bays

there is also the new entrance to the garden opposite the hugh lane, a new electricity substation (just saying whats happened not that its a positive) and works to the rear of the ambassador

@gunter wrote:

If there was a bus equivalent of the train-spotter, Parnell Square would be the equivalent of Crewe.

http://allaboutbuses.wordpress.com/

http://garaiste.yuku.com/

Yes there have been some minor improvements like the new enterence to the park. However the more expensive parts of the plan such as new paving and bus bays seem to have gone the way of the Millenium Clock. I always thought it was horrible for the buses to stop on front of those Georgian Buildings. I’d rather if they stopped on a central median/traffic Island similar to the inbound Abbey Street luas stop

It all goes back to Charles Haughey’s decision to stop Dublin Bus from building an underground terminus at Temple Bar with a tunnel under the Liffey to another terminus near Capel Street. This would have gotten ALL the buses off the streets, and turned Parnell Square, Fleet St, College Green etc. back into thoroughfares. Instead they are bus car parks, with all that entails in terms of pollution – both noise and air.

Meanwhile bus passengers have to wait on the streets in all weathers, instead of being able to go to an indoor terminus, buy a newspaper, sit down, actually know when the next bus is coming, and generally be civilised.

But no, Haughey wanted a left bank, arty farty quartier and made CIE sell back all the house bank it had accumulated with a view to building a terminus. So we got a giant drinking den instead with not a bus in sight. Well done CJ, you corrupt little crook. RIP 😡

Please tell me that is tongue in cheek!

agreed, i doubt any major changes will actually happen to parnell square, maybe a repaving but nothing on the scale proposed.

sue, such a large scheme would never have gone ahead (thank god) instead temple bar would have been flattened and turned into a surface carpark for dublin bus and would have only been redeveloped recently… never thought id defend charlie haughy!

yep Charlie was a slieveen of the highest order and a scab on the face of irish public life, but saving Temple Bar was a great deed for Dublin. Any fucking ignorant prick who calls it a “drinking den” should be thrown in the Liffey, not literally of course – but taken to task in some way. The fact that Temple Bar has not a car in sight either seems to have escaped our old friend sue…

good to see the standard of debate is as high as ever. nice one alonso

the car parks were going to be underground. I’m no engineer, but apart from egress points for the buses, I think the impact on the surface would not have been huge. You could still have had a drinking den/cultural quarter overhead

it was my understanding, and i’m open to correction, that a massive concrete block would have been built on both sides of the Liffey that looked suspiciously like a giant bus garage for buses like.

I see you’re still calling it a drinking den. Christ almighty have you actually been in it at all?

I have indeed. Fair enough, a “drinking den” is a slightly provocative statement but a “cultural quarter” it ain’t. Other than the Irish Film Centre, there is no cultural institution of any note or value.

Loving the ping-ping between Sue and Alonso. Could we not agree that Temple Bar is part drinking den(s) and, in absence of anywhere else, part cultural quarter. Like Pilear, I never thought I could defend anything Haughian.

@Sue wrote:

I have indeed. Fair enough, a “drinking den” is a slightly provocative statement but a “cultural quarter” it ain’t. Other than the Irish Film Centre, there is no cultural institution of any note or value.

Ah now Sue, methinks you are stirring it up :p

A massive bus depot where Temple Bar is would have been awful.

Granted Temple Bar is more a stag party west bank than it is a left bank, but apart from the IFC, there is the Print Studios and artists studios, the Button Factory, the Childrens’ Ark, and some other worthwhile stuff – Green Building, though now dated, was nonetheless a good initiative…

Meanwhile this is all letting Dublin Bus off the hook – [gets on soapbox] – Dublin Bus are simply the worst land users imaginable. They have absolutely no cognisance as to how to use their sizable land bank effectively and efficiently – anytime during the day one can see how their buses choke up Parnell Square and Marlborough Street, meanwhile up at Broadstone during the day, it looks like this:

… and over at Summerhill, it appears like this:

Note the empty deserts of tarmac. Apart from idiotic land mis-usage Dublin Bus are also far from exemplary custodians of important architecture within their care, with Skipton Mulvany’s fine Egyptian Revival essay at Broadstone left like this – squalid, semi-derelict and covered with litter:

Truth of it is, far from another depot where Temple Bar is, it would be much better to get Dublin Bus to manage their own existing facilities in an accountable manner. This also includes cutting archaic working practises dating from the time of trams which left workers taking their break in around the pillar. The pillar is long gone, and so too should be consigned to the history bin any reactionary unions that try to stop the city from functioning for their own selfish ends…

ah hutton c’mon Summerhill and Broadstone are miiiiiiiiiiiles away from O Connell Street and therefore nowhere near the mythical land of An Lár. Surely you can’t expect all buses to strain their way up Parnell Sq and THEN go all the way up Granby row to Broadstone! crazy talk! As your photos show Broadstone is performing a very important role channeling rainwater and giving litter some decent private open space.

As for Temple Bar – the Arthouse, Project Arts Centre (still there?), Cultivate, recording studios, Temple Lane, IFC, music venues like Dorans and the Music Centre ~(button factory me arse), the food market, tonnes of specialist retail and restaurants, and the IFC. It’s a very very different place in the 9 to 5 than at night but sure Joe Duffy and The Star don’t write about that. Also, while not fully pedestrianised it’s the only pedestrian dominant place of that scale in Ireland, i’d proffer, open to correction. So while it doesn’t have an Abbey, a Gate or a National Concert Hall (which it was never intended to ) it’s the number and mix of uses which make it unique – still – despite all the boozers and the easy tabloid slurs. It contains a critical mass of variety, if that’s not an oxymoron, which add up to a cultural quarter. Don’t forget that while the stag and hen parties are staggering all over the shop at 4 am there are people tucked inside less “public” buildings writing songs, recording, painting and making movies etc 24/7.

@ctesiphon wrote:

http://allaboutbuses.wordpress.com/

http://garaiste.yuku.com/

That is quite disturbing.

BTW, when did Dublin Bus start washing their buses? A proper Dublin bus is thickly coated in grime. Do these people have no respect for tradition?

*I often had to open a window on the 78A to see if I was anywhere near my stop*.

Leaving the buses aside for the moment, Parnell Square must must be in the text books as how not to do an urban space.

The ratio of road surface to ‘square’ is absurd. Why did the Georgians put in racetrack width carriageways in the first place? Did they sit up on the piano nobiles gambling on, ‘Ben Hur’ style, sedan chair races around the square?

Then there’s the Garden of Remembrance. Every other capital city, with a revolutionary past, has a central square with a ‘great monument to the Republic’ and we get a Chelsea Garden Show exhibit with a kiddies swimming pool that you never see anybody use,

The Garden of Remembrance uses all the worst ideas in 20th century memorial architecture: The morbid classicism, the stiff manicured lawns, the regimented seating, the Zepplin Field steps and proto fuhrer podium, the leaden sculpture, railings painted in gold and royal blue. If this says anything about 1916, it’s how completely our cultural consciousness has become mainstream Anglo-Saxon.

I’ve seen the master plan (posted last year by Graham) and even though it looks far reaching, I don’t think it gets anywhere near the radical re-think that a place like Parnell Square needs.

If you look at the evolution of the square, it started out as a philantropic idea, was exploited as a marketing tool, suceeded as a high-end residential venture, developed as a social hub and then slid into terminal decline when fashion moved on and the funcional demands of the institutions began to encroach on the concept.

To tap into the urban potential, the square has to be re-made. As well as being filled up with haphazard buildings, the square never had a southern edge. That should be the first priority, Build a southern edge. Top quality Civic buildings would fit the bill, an extension of the hospital on the right, and the new Central Library (the one they’re trying to squeeze into the Ambassador) on the left. What’s left, the upper two thirds, should be re-planned as a, hard surface, urban square with pockets of trees, edgy pavilions, a sunken garden if necessary, a great monument to the Republic (definitely). The bus stand thing could even work as an designed-in element of a re-made civic square. It would guarantee constant footfall and keep the space busy and vibrant.

@alonso wrote:

As for Temple Bar – the Arthouse, Project Arts Centre (still there?), Cultivate, recording studios, Temple Lane, IFC, music venues like Dorans and the Music Centre ~(button factory me arse), the food market, tonnes of specialist retail and restaurants, and the IFC. It’s a very very different place in the 9 to 5 than at night but sure Joe Duffy and The Star don’t write about that. Also, while not fully pedestrianised it’s the only pedestrian dominant place of that scale in Ireland, i’d proffer, open to correction. So while it doesn’t have an Abbey, a Gate or a National Concert Hall (which it was never intended to ) it’s the number and mix of uses which make it unique – still – despite all the boozers and the easy tabloid slurs. It contains a critical mass of variety, if that’s not an oxymoron, which add up to a cultural quarter. Don’t forget that while the stag and hen parties are staggering all over the shop at 4 am there are people tucked inside less “public” buildings writing songs, recording, painting and making movies etc 24/7.

Spoken like a young Arthur O’Shaughnessy there, alonso. Very moving indeed. :p

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world’s great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire’s glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song’s measure
Can trample an empire down.
…

Ode (excerpt)

.

@gunter wrote:

. . . the leaden sculpture . . .
.

I don’t agree with you regarding the Children of Lir; I don’t find it leaden, but more importantly, I don’t find it Anglo-Saxon, in fact, I don’t think the Anglo-Saxon world is united in how they commemorate their dead, American’s die for their friends and their memorials, with one famous, glorious, exception, are realistic figurative statues, even the Vietnam memorial has a little bronze action scene nearby, the wall seemed too weird when proposed to be allowed to stand alone. The British died for an ideal of valour and out of a social obligation and they favour expressionist statues and lists of names, we died for the dead and for a fairytale we only half believed and our most noted memorials are either graves, grave-like, or representations of myths.

Come on notjim, those swans are never gettin’ off the ground.

OK the sculpture has qualities, but flight isn’t one of them and anyway, it’s the whole assembly that doesn’t work. It feels like a cemetery, but there’s no graves. The new steps down opp. the gallery help, but it’s such a waste of an urban space.

@gunter wrote:

Come on notjim, those swans are never gettin’ off the ground.

OK the sculpture has qualities, but flight isn’t one of them and anyway, it’s the whole assembly that doesn’t work. It feels like a cemetery, but there’s no graves. The new steps down opp. the gallery help, but it’s such a waste of an urban space.

“It feels like a cemetery”, exactly; my point was not that it was a good memorial but that it wasn’t Anglo-Saxon in that it typified the Irish memorial language of graves and legends.

Separately, I think the sculpture has a dynamics, bursting, quality which contrasts enjoyably with the heaviness of the material, I also think people are generally fond of, sentimental about, the whole ensemble because of its weird Ireland-in-the-60s atmosphere and because it is a relic of a time when Irish Republicanism could be celebrate in such a goofy, unthinking way. Certainly those of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s can’t help but feel a sort of envy for a childishness we were denied.

I think you are getting out of the habit of reading my posts before replying to them!

@notjim wrote:

I think you are getting out of the habit of reading my posts before replying to them!

I read your post, you just went off on a tangent and I chose not to follow.

For the record, and since we’re swinging handbags here, you picked out the ‘Anglo-Saxon’ phrase from my post, (possibly because you may have issues in that direction) and you ignored the substance of what I was saying.

I will think about what you said though and I will go back down there, I missed it’s ‘dynamic, bursting quality’ the last time I was there.

@gunter wrote:

For the record, and since we’re swinging handbags here,

I thought exclamation marks where synonymous with smilies, no?

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world’s great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire’s glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song’s measure
Can trample an empire down.

yeh i think that’s what Charlie said to CIE alright. Either that or “Fuck off with your buses. I am a man of fcking culture – PJ get me my coat, I’m going to Paris to buy some fcking shirts…” etc etc (it sounds funnier if you have Dermot Morgan’s voice in your head saying it)

regarding the picture of the state that Broadstone station is in, I am thoroughly shocked and appauled

16/11/2009

Well we can safely assume now that the Parnell Square Framework Plan is well and truly defunct. If I recall correctly, work was just about to get underway c. 2006-2007 on the public domain of the Cavendish Row side, before halting in its tracks – well before the downturn took hold. Anyone remember why?

Looking back in hindsight at the generally well-considered plan, complied by Howley Harrington Architects in 2004 and published in February 2005, the figures bandied about for some works were staggering, including an eye-popping €2.3 million just for repaving, coach parking provision and planting a few trees on Palace Row! The Celtic Tiger on turbo.

Sadly, not even non-capital intensive projects like improving the curtilage and presentation of the Rotunda have come about. With a number of recent highly dubious facade re-pointing jobs on the west side of Parnell Square, which in the long term actually degrade the quality of urban fabric, it could be argued that the square has degenerated further since the publication of the report.

The same is true of its wider environment, including Parnell Street east, a grand, well-proportioned thoroughfare with an historic building stock of such strength and character as to make one ache at its dilapidated potential.

This is a street that is grossly underrated by planners; one of the greatest assets to the north inner city if its strengths were capitalised on. Its buildings, as shown by gunter on the Dutch Billy thread, date from as far back as the early 18th century, with many more of later Georgian and Victorian origin. This is one of the best streets on the north side of the city precisely because it hasn’t received any large-scale ‘regeneration’ as with Parnell Street to the west.

In spite of a number of sites being tax-incentivised, and being located in the O’Connell Street ACA, ironically nothing but corrosive works have transpired here over the past decade. Most perplexing of all is the recent rendering over in cement of this charming cluster of late Georgian houses, all Protected Structures, at the junction with O’Connell Street.

A handsome array of buildings that encapsulates in a nutshell the dominant building typology of Dublin, until recently the houses featured a loose coat of render, apparently a Victorian lime plaster, which almost certainly would have walked off the buildings with a decent hand chisel and a mallet.

As the Dublin climate already tried to show us.

Also a beautiful narrow house here with roof profile intact and Wyatt windows, one of the very last of its kind in the city.

The potential for a full-on restoration of these merchant houses to their original brick-faced appearance is now almost certainly lost with the application of a strong cemetitious render. Of course no planning permission whatever was applied for. The owner saw fit to sit on these derelict protected buildings for probably over a decade, and then carry out the most botched job conceivable to apply to such a series of buildings. And they’re still empty. The dingy vacant scaffold erected over them earlier this year should have set alarm bells ringing…

If DCC had kept the pressure on owners on Parnell Street through incentivising conservation and restoration works with grant funding, tax carrots, and offers of internal guidance and support, this may very well never have happened. The same can be said of the grubby hotel next door, probably owned by a former Garda, gaming merchant or farmer, who recently saw fit, on Protected Structures, in an ACA, to ‘tart up’ the frontage by applying yet another layer of garish paint over the brickwork. The result.

There doesn’t seem to be an understanding that standard laws of economics do not work, and never will work, in situations and city areas such as these. A concerted effort must be made by a planning authority to effect change on the ground, by contacting owners, holding discussions, finding out stakeholders’ long term plans and proposals, outlining all available options, offer constructive support, and use the stick of CPO if necessary in the case of derelict sites. Instead however, we get opportunist, speculative applications trickling in on the whim of owners, and when they do, inevitably propose lowest common denominator of infill trash. As charted here before, this behemoth of a mega-apartment scheme, tax-incentivised using public funds, with only a miniscule fraction of a street frontage into Parnell Street, gave this back to the citizens of Dublin. Simply outrageous.

The marvelous potential for a gracious Georgian streetscape of red brick, with marching ranks of correct sash windows and well-proportioned shopfronts, is waiting to be realised here, as much as it is sadly being eroded by the day. If this terrace was properly tackled, it would be the making of Parnell Street.

once Fibber’s built on the beer garden it was all over

Sadly the new Draft Development Plan doesnt offer very much to Parnell Street. It is suggesting supoporting the development of a mini Chinatown on the street. I must see if the Parnel Sq Framework is mentioned.

If I remember rightly the planned improvements were all postponed due to the uncertainty of Metro North and Luas BX. In fairness to DCC there is no point in spending €3m on paving etc if the RPA are going to come along and rip it all up.

The new Draft Dev Plan will include a policy to upgrade the public domain of the entire Grand Civic route from Parnell Sq to Christchurch.

Graham, you surpass yourself with every thread you post.
Well done here.

GrahamH: with my rapidly declining first-hand experience of the city, I’ve refrained from posting much recently, but need to congratulate you once again on an excoriatingly accurate anlysis of the state of PStE; hope and vision everywhere seem to be taking a holiday at the moment. How can Dublin planners live with themselves?

I don’t envy their job, but the wider culture appears to be one of reaction rather than proaction. Even when area plans and policies such as ACAs are put in place, these constructive measures are considered to be ‘done and dusted’, where one can sit back with yet another objective of the Development Plan ‘sorted’. Simply hoping for the best isn’t enough with these measures, and it applies to all areas, whether it be Grafton Street or Marlborough Street. Proactive efforts have to be made to use these tools, rather than hope they will become relevant when necessary (and brushed under the carpet when not wanted, as with Carlton).

Ah of course it was Metro that halted works, Stephen – doh! Yes the delay is naturally understandable, but again another victim of the RPA effectively holding the ceremonial core of the city to ransom in respect of public domain improvement. If this continues, any provisions in the next Development Plan for the so-called Grand Civic Thoroughfare will soon be obsolete too! The Draft Plan makes a number of references to the north Georgian core and the need for its ‘protection’, particularly Parnell Square and Mountjoy Square – though one would have thought its rehabilitation would be a more appropriate term.

At least plans for the Dublin City Library in the Ambassador are still being drafted, apparently by Seán Harrington Architects – if now under tighter financial constraints – which will act as a major stimulus for the area. I can’t wait to see it unfold. One of the best public decisions made for Dublin city centre in the past decade. The quietest ones tend to be.

I suppose a proactive measure for Parnell Street etc would be if people made submissions on the Draft Plan calling for its rehabilitation and supporting the Parnell Sq Framework. The Draft Plan goes on display at the end Dec. Plenty of tine over Christmas for people to put together short subvmissions. Put your ink where you mouth is Archiseekers!

@GrahamH wrote:

16/11/2009
Also a beautiful narrow house here with roof profile intact and
Wyatt windows, one of the very last of its kind in the city.

You’re building up quite a collection of these slim, bordering on skinny, elegant beauties there Graham.;)

I remember when this one had a superb simple shopfront to go with it’s beatifully graduated Wyatt windows and then one day it was gone, replaced by a sheet of ply, and I have no picture of it.

As Graham says, these three houses [nos. 76, 77 + 78] offer a virtual glossary of Dublin Georgian in a single tableau, 10m from the corner of O’Connell Street . . . . . or could if they were carefully conserved.

The next four houses in the terrace are perhaps marginally less interesting, in that they have less variation, but again I would totally agree with Graham that a city sponsored programme of facade conservation would do wonders for the streetscape, the public realm, and perhaps give the whole north end of the O’Connell Street zone a much needed lift.

Aaah springtime in Dublin: the leaves beginning to open on trees, the freshly planted baskets and planters, the old spruce up before the start of the big tourist summer……

And on Parnell Square, the installation of some nice new useless bollards to clutter yet another corner of Dublin’s Fair City.

Don’t fall off the path!!!!

The bollards complement the ranks of bus stops, a number of which only serve one route. Also add in a smattering of RTPI poles.

Visual clutter abounds. Archiseekers with long memories might remember the spanking new public realm proposed for Parnell Square under the 2005 Framework Plan that never was. Thankfully DCC Roads department continues to make some much needed investment in the area.

I would almost be inclined to agree (if it wasn’t for your signage being a) a hideous but now commonplace defacement of a protected structure, b) probably unauthorised, and c) surely in breach of the regulations concerning election advertisements). Then again the laws of the 26 county statelet never did apply to Sinn Fein.

Around the corner on the charmingly named Cavendish Row and North Frederick Street, the commitment to quality continues:

DCC applying a little less vigour to protecting a protected structure than to adorning city streets with municipal clutter.

One of the area’s landmark structures…made famous by the Malton print (one display nearby). This is the view for recent high profile visitors such as Albert of Monaco and of course QEII on their way to the Garden of Remembrance.

Shopfront Guidelines anyone?

It’s staggering how quickly the city has degenerated. You could carry out the same exercise in 3/4 of the city centre area and find similar. I cannot even imagine what things are going to be like in five years time.

Agreed Kefu, but , I suppose its no surprise! The last time the City was in such a state was the 1980s. Look at the similarities, a dreadful economic cricis and acres of vacant city centre sites that had been put together by development site assemblers in the brief boom of the late 1970s.

Then again, even during more affulent times there was very little care or maintainence of properties. Alot of Irish people want the rights that go with property but not the responsibilities. Just look in suburban areas how many people have the inside of their houses decorated lavishly but their from garden is like a rubbish tip or garage forcourt!:)

The reputation of Parnell Street is so bad that it will take alot for it to ever recover. In a sense its never been right since Dublin Corporation pulled it apart for road widening over 30 years ago. Its even entered lingua franca as a definition of dereliction….several times when talking to foreigners such as Polish/Lithuanian etc about their hiome Cities , I have noticed when they want to convey the idea of an area that is run down, dangerous or seedy they refer to it as “like Parnell St”!!:)

C

I cant disagree with anything there…it is exactly like the 80s. And look how hard and expensive it was to try and get out of that mindset. The O’Connell IAP was supposed to change everything…but here we are back in the same area almost 14 years after that plan and look.

Looks like Cavendish Row is next for the bollards

@StephenC wrote:

Looks like Cavendish Row is next for the bollards

I wonder if,given DCC’s rapidity and effectivity with erecting bollards,they might purchase some with little LED fairy-lights built in ?

Then they could install them at various darkened location’s around our glorious City (WESTMORELAND St springs to mind) thus short-circuiting the Public Lighting Section’s long running inability to illuminate these places….

In the absence of this type of thinking,we the People,must rely,once again,on the House of Windsor for a bit of salvation !!! :crazy:

‘Oriental enclave’ recommended for Dublin

OLIVIA KELLY

DERELICTION AND urban blight which have dogged one of Dublin’s historic inner city areas could be reversed if an oriental quarter were developed on Parnell Street according to a report by the Dublin Civic Trust.

The report recommends restoration of the traditional 18th and 19th century facades, the removal of garish shopfronts and signage, new paving, lighting and trees on Parnell Street East and the creation of an off-street “oriental enclave” or village of restaurants and shops.

Commissioned by the Dublin City Business Association and Carroll’s Gifts and Souvenirs, the report criticises the “disfigurement” of the street through demolition and low-quality additions, and accuses Dublin City Council of failing to enforce planning regulations and follow through on several planned regeneration schemes for the area. Parnell Street East, running from O’Connell Street to Gardiner Street has 13 listed buildings many of which had been allowed to decline with the loss of historic joinery, windows and masonry and the addition of inappropriate elements such as PVC windows, garish paintwork, and plastic and illuminated signage. In some cases buildings lay vacant and semi-derelict but in other cases the original frontages were just hidden by modern additions and could be restored relatively easily.

Commercial activity on the street had increased over the last decade due to the influx of “ethnic businesses” attracted by low rents, but the report says “this belies the serious and long-standing problems of a lack of investment and continued degradation of its historic building stock”.

While the new-found vibrancy of the street was welcome it had become a “transient immigrant district” with a high turnover and diminishing diversity of businesses. The turnover of users was causing degradation of the fabric of buildings with short-term tenants having little interest in undertaking capital improvements.

It was also clear, the report said, that some businesses change the use or undertake developments of a building without recourse to the planning system. The lack of planning enforcement on the street was evident in the number of historic buildings falling into dereliction. Two of the most important Georgian houses on the Street, numbers 76 and 78, were in a particularly poor condition, the report says.

“Further decay is inevitable if efforts are not made by Dublin City Council to identify the owners and seek remedial works.”

The city council had also failed to maintain the public realm of the street which was “dismal when one considers its location off the premier thoroughfare of a European capital.” Lighting and street furniture was “ugly and utilitarian”, and pavements were poorly maintained and “pockmarked” with tarmac patches.

The report envisages investment by the council in the public realm and enforcement of planning legislation, while business and property owners would restore shopfronts and buildings with traditional designs and complementary new buildings.

It also plans for the creation of a new “oriental enclave” in a block bounded by North Cumberland Street, Marlborough Street and Cathal Brugha Street. The “Village” could showcase Asian architecture and design and serve as a restaurant and shopping emporium “without unduly impacting on the sensitive surrounding streets and historic area”.

Colm Carroll, a property owner on Parnell Street said the business and property owners had agreed to invest in the street and while talks with the council are at an early stage, it had “given support to our aspirations”.

Oriental food quarter branding would attract people, but the historic nature of the buildings would be respected he said.

Suggestions made by former lord mayor Gerry Breen that a Chinese Arch should be erected at the entrance of the street were “unlikely to be a runner”, Mr Carroll said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1013/1224305705635.html

“Oriental enclave”. For the love of all that’s holy what kind of report uses a word, “Oriential”, that is regarded as the symbol of a patronizing and exoticizing attitude to Asians to suggest making an “enclave” to “showcase Asian architecture and design and serve as a restaurant and shopping emporium”!

notjim is right, ‘Oriental enclave’ is not exactly PC, they should have run with Chinatown

I suppose they live and learn

@notjim wrote:

“Oriental enclave”. For the love of all that’s holy what kind of report uses a word, “Oriential”, that is regarded as the symbol of a patronizing and exoticizing attitude to Asians to suggest making an “enclave” to “showcase Asian architecture and design and serve as a restaurant and shopping emporium”!

Haha, it’s a UK / American differentiation isn’t it? In the UK the Pakistani 711 attack suspects were of “Asian” origin. But in America “Asian” mafia dons were controversially moved up the liver transplant list in the hope of info on fellow Japanese mafiosi.

http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/news-entry.php?title=report-launched-on-parnell-street-east-rejuvenation&post=1318848980

There are some very good ideas in that report about what should be done around Parnell Sq. I was initially disconcerted by the lack of lanterns, neon signs and pagoda-style awnnings which are normally associated with Chinatowns but the emphasis on brickwork makes sense given that it is one of the strengths of Dublin architecture. Whether or not DCC, the Government or the traders themselves pick up on the Civic Trust’s ideas it is nonetheless crucial that we do successfully develop this Chinatown. The whole area north of Talbot Street and south of Parnell St. should be developed into a series of ethnic quarters to give a platform to the cosmopolitanism of our city.

With the ethnic quarter you get a revitalization of previously dead streets, but on the other hand, shopfront design and the control of signage often goes down another notch lower than you thought was possible.

Sticking with the positive, I took a late night stroll around the Capel Street area the other night and I was struck by how lively the place was due, almost exclusively, to ethnic shops and restaurants – open when the shutters were down on everything else. There was even a new Polish shop open on Little Britain Street, which used to be a chasm of darkness, even during the day.

A new [to me anyway] Chinese restaurant on Mary Street, opposite the church/pub, was absolutely heaving, all very encouraging.

I think the Civic Trust report on Parnell Street is right to highlight the ethnic business energies in the area and the potential that that brings for urban regeneration, and I think they’re right too to point out that without a strong, vision-led, framework all those energies will dissipate and result in little or no urban regeneration. That’s were the City Council need to lead with pilot schemes, active engagment, and pro-active planning.

17th November, sees the next “Thursday Lunchtime Conversations in darcspace”

Dublin Civic Trust will lead a discussion on their recent report ‘Parnell Street East: A Vision for an Historic City Centre Street’ with Dr Sandra O’Connell is the ‘host/facilitator’. The lunch event coincides with the current exhibition at darc space, which marks the publication of the Trust’s thought-provoking report, setting out a vision for Parnell Street East. The exhibition runs until the 18th November and was opened on 3 November by Dublin City Architect Ali Grehan.

The lunch-time discussion (1-2pm) will explore how one of the city’s most central yet most forgotten thoroughfares could become once more a vibrant commercial and residential centre. However it will also raise wider, important questions on how, in light of major government cutbacks, individuals and organisations can bring about positive change on all levels – from small interventions to the large city scale.

The event is freebut as places are limited please contact us to book in: info@darcspace.ie

Lunch is kindly sponsored by Carrolls Gift Stores, who have also sponsored the exhibition and, with the DCBA, also sponsored the report.

@StephenC wrote:

http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/news-ent … 1318848980

Looks good.

Also photos from the DCC Libraries site of the ’74 bomb aftermath show that Parnell Street’s buildings were once much classier looking:

@GrahamH wrote:

@GrahamH wrote:

@GrahamH wrote:

Stenchy Fibbers.

Ya wait years for an applications for Parnell Street that might suggest a change of attitude to a street in almost terminal decline and this is what you get http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00363858.pdf

Thankfully refused http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=2142/12&theTabNo=2&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1742720%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=’wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=2153346%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1742720%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E’%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

The new design for the child rape memorial in the Garden of Remembrance has been released.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/design-for-institutional-abuse-memorial-released.html

So the City Council ran out of money for the repaving of Parnell Square. However OPW are applying for Planning Permission for the Memorial for Victims of Abuse in Institutions. So while you wait for your bus on the narrow, cracked pavement you can look across the four lanes of tarmac to the visual feast above.

Aside from the question of whether it’s a fitting memorial, I’d have thought there were inherent problems in building a publicly accessible 20 metre long tunnel in a city centre location. None of the images seem to show what the inside of this tunnel will look like.

Link to Planning Application-

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=WEB1196/12&backURL=%3Ca

Poor Parnell Square

I actually think that given the confines of the site its not a bad design.

However, we all know what the area is like….there is a distinct danger of any type of enclosed tunnel becoming a doss house and public urinal.

C

If anyone was thinking of making observations to DCC on this, monday (26-11-12) is the last day.

could only find this on line for other entries
http://www.12publishers.com/njba_culture.htm

http://www.12publishers.com/NJBA_files/iNJBA479_View1A_040512.jpg

Ill put bets on this monument will be locked within a year after it gets regular use as a public toilet/drugs spot. Its very badly thought-out. As usual, the city’s squares are used as a dumping ground for random addition (the Solider Memorial on Merrion) with no thought to context. In the case of Parnell, the square rots around it.

Is it worth spending the €20?

I’ll send you an invoice 🙂

A request for further information was made on 14th Dec for this development. http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=WEB1196/12&theTabNo=2&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1837161%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=’wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=2263531%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1837161%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E’%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

It really is heartening to see this be properly questioned.

The whole scheme smacks of such politically correct tokenism, I wasn’t sure if it would get the right attention.

In particular I welcome that people are objecting on the basis of the confused relationship that the proposed memorial would have with the existing monument to the struggle for national independence.

Councillor Mannix Flynn, who himself previously suffered institutional abuse, puts the matter most succinctly, describing it as “wholly inappropriate” and that the memorial to “the integrity of those who gave their lives for an equal society as declared in the proclamation of 1916… should not be tarnished with this State memorial which is a shameful part of Irish history created by the Irish state”.

It is most welcome to see Dublin City Council planning department do a thorough job by requesting a half dozen points of additional information, which further adds to my cynicism as to the entire project being at best a rushed bit of politically correct tokenism.

If the State considers this matter to be of such significance, why don’t they hold an open competition, seeking suggestions regarding both form and location?

Of course, in my opinion, the best memorial the State could do regarding this matter would be to reopen the deal by Michael Woods under Bertie Ahern that indemnified the RC church from prosecution from victims – with instead compensation paid over at the cost to the Irish taxpayer.

@Morlan wrote:

The new design for the child rape memorial in the Garden of Remembrance has been released.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/design-for-institutional-abuse-memorial-released.html

I love the way the only car park spaces shown are for the disabled… And who said that that this is just a meaningless politically correct exercise in tokenism?

I see now a large prominent tricolour is to fly as well. In keeping with the “symbolism”, if only the designers had written on it “I O U”, that would round off the scheme perfectly.

@Morlan wrote:

I see now a large prominent tricolour is to fly as well.

That’s already there.

The wheelchair spaces raised the biggest guffaw for me. Ironically, they are one of the biggest insults to the mobility-impaired. Do they think they have no aesthetic sensibilities? If they’re going this far, why not chuck in a giant yellow box road marking, an electrical cabinet or three, and a few hundred bollards? A decent scattering of crumpled Dutch Gold cans would also be in this hyper-realisim vein.

In almost every way imaginable – from theory, to context, to execution – this is a seriously problematic project, ultimately crystalised by the fact that the very concept, never mind the detail, is classic material for a sketch on Irish Pictorial Weekly. Indeed, were it to feature, it would be the funniest, wryly self-deprecating insert of the series. The fact this has actually got this far thanks to the effort of a State agency that is supposed to be supporting Dublin’s UNESCO aspirations, and is actually unfolding before our eyes, is devastating.

There is absolutely nobody in control in this city. Poor Parnell Square is now going the way of Merrion Square and the Dublin Linn Garden as the random gallery to atonement and commemoration.

Wonder how the proposed memorial fits in…

Course it would be nice to see the Plan on the Council’s website the same day that it is launched. Seems everyone was none the wiser about the story breaking today. The City Architect never even mentioned it at last night’s opening of Central Bank in the 21st Century…despite the fact that a number of those entries suggested a Library for the former bank….including the winning design! Perhaps the City Architect wasnt in the loop…this is Dublin City Council after all.

HOWEVER! The Plan sounds like a great opportunity for the Square and I fervently hope that their is a programme of action behind it to realised its objectives…unlike its 2005 forebearer.

I look forward to reading it.

Ali [the City Architect] was just explaining all of this on the radio.

The new library is to be built in the buckets of space behind Scoil whatsitsname on Parnell Square North and it’s going to be ‘an incredibly dynamic space’, which I suppose will be some compensation for having no architectural presence on any actual street.

As grand civic statements go, is that not like announcing that a site has been found for Mr Gandon’s new Custom House . . . in a yard behind Store Street?

I note also the Dublin’s ‘Civic Spine’ has taken another turn, with Grangegorman and Kilmainham now its new extremities.

The whole thing is going to be financed by ‘Philanthropic funding’. Why did nobody think of this before?

There’s already a gloss video…

heres the details

http://www.dublincity.ie/Press/PressReleases/PressReleasesApril2013/Pages/DublinCityCouncillaunchesdetailsofParnellSquareCulturalQuarter-anewCulturalDistrictforDublinCity.aspx

http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/libraries/News%20Items/Pages/dublin-city-library.aspx

@StephenC wrote:

Wonder how the proposed memorial fits in…

here’s a very large 2.5mb image you just about see the memorial under the trees, slightly hedging their bets i think http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/ParnellSquareCulturalQuarter/PublishingImages/PSQ%20plan%20view.jpg

I actually like the renders and I feel this project would provide and interesting backdrop and alternative entrance to the Garden of Rememberance, as opposed to the tangle of groth that currently envelopes this part of the site. However, I am allways instinctively dubious about developments which are “fitted in” , as the constraints of the site compromise the design.

I would be equally unsympathetic about some of the objectors though, somehow I suspect Mannix Flynn is part of the Anti-everything brigade.

C

Those cuboid three-storey pillars are hideous, as is that ridiculous cylindrical billboard that says ‘Cad é an scéal?’. They are to this architectural era what Hawkins House was to the 60s.

@arachne wrote:

Those cuboid three-storey pillars are hideous, as is that ridiculous cylindrical billboard that says ‘Cad é an scéal?’. They are to this architectural era what Hawkins House was to the 60s.

I think that the images shown on Friday are only preliminary suggestions. I dont think it represents the end design.

Now that the froth of Friday has subsided, what do we all think of the proposal. Ali Grehan suggested it would be the most important investment in the north city for 100 years. Not quite that, but it is a huge impetus to the improvement of Parnell Square and the surrounding streets. Its a lot of money though…€60m just for one development. Its worth noting that the 2005 Framework Plan for the Square planned to spend about €12 if I remember rightly. That plan soon died (as these plans all too often do in Dublin) once it came against the quangoed might of the RPA and their interminable planning for Metro North and Luas BXD.

I think the proposal to move the Library here makes a great deal of sense. I think it will cluster a group of cultural institutions together to their overall benefit. I like the idea of pedestrianising the north side of the Square and finally improving the quality of the public realm on the Square, which is dismal and incoherent. I have a feeling what will emerge from the City Architects will be a contemporary, chinese granite and ‘funky’ lighting proposal for the square. I think you can reimagine the space and still reinforce its historic character. I wonder what will happen to the Dublin Bus mini-depot that is Granby Row/West Parnell Square. Where will all de buses go if suddenly people decide they want to use more roadspace.

How about the Colaiste Mhuire buildings. Does the theatre to the rear have any architectural merit. Might that upset the planning process?

The project is undoubtedly a coup for the City Architects over the usual originators of projects within the Council. Ali Grehan was making the most of it on Friday and fair play…it is a forward looking proposal for the city. The next question is who will design the building? Looking at the Cork Hill fiasco I am not sure I would like to trust this to DCC. And looking at the state of Dublin Castle at present, I am not sure I would trust OPW. So perhaps it will be go out to a firm. I think that would be a good outcome – and a nice little earner for someone by the looks of it.

Still thinking of whether €60m is a justifiable cost?

@thebig C wrote:

I actually like the renders and I feel this project would provide and interesting backdrop and alternative entrance to the Garden of Rememberance, as opposed to the tangle of groth that currently envelopes this part of the site. However, I am allways instinctively dubious about developments which are “fitted in” , as the constraints of the site compromise the design.

I would be equally unsympathetic about some of the objectors though, somehow I suspect Mannix Flynn is part of the Anti-everything brigade.

C

darcspace on North Great Georges Street are hosting an exhibition of all the entries for the memorial from Thursday this week. That should be interesting.

I think Mannix views on whether it is appropriate to link a memorial for one thing into a memorial for another are quite relevant actually. I think he is raising a legitimate issue…maybe not a planning issue, maybe more an issue at the time of commissioning and site selection but sure who thinks of these things then.

My biggest concern with the proposed memorial is the wisdom of sticking an open tunnel like structure into the site…its a red flag to people using the place as a toilet or sleeping rough. So a gate will almost certainly be added. The next question then is how often it is opened? Is this going to be like the 1988 Millennium Garden on Christchurch Place…nice to look into.

Hey StephenC

Your point regarding the tunnel aspect is legitimate. Afterall, Parnell Squares poor reputation is not undeserved. Furthermore, I think the boardwalk and numerous other examples have proved that we are not good at either policing or indeed servicing public amenities.

C

For those interested, further information on the proposed memorial has now been submitted to Dublin City Council – ref WEB1196/12

A victory for common sense…

Dublin memorial to abuse victims refused permission – Plans would have had negative impact on Garden of Remembrance

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-memorial-to-abuse-victims-refused-permission-1.1609187

Plans to build a memorial to victims of institutional abuse in the Garden of Remembrance on Dublin’s Parnell Square have been refused by An Bord Pleanála.
The application by the Office of Public Works to build the monument was approved by Dublin City Council last May despite several objections including one from an abuse survivors’ support group. It was subsequently appealed to An Bord Pleanála.
A number of parties, including Irish Survivors of Child Abuse and former industrial school resident and Independent city councillor Mannix Flynn objected on the grounds that it interfered with the existing memorial to those who died fighting for Irish freedom and that the association between the two memorials was inappropriate.
Others, including the Irish Georgian Society, objected to the effect the proposal would have on the structure and character of the historic 18th century square.
Despite the council having approved the application, An Bord Pleanála said the plans were in conflict with the council’s own rules for the protection of the special interest and character of conservation areas under Dublin City Development Plan “The proposal therefore would not be in accordance with proper planning and sustainable development,” An Bord Pleanála said.
It also said that as the Garden of Remembrance is a “State memorial” used for State ceremonial occasions and was of national importance, it was inappropriate to put a “second unrelated memorial” on the site.
“It is considered, notwithstanding the importance of the creation of a memorial to commemorate the victims of institutional abuse, that the proposed development would have an adverse impact on the setting, character and function of the Garden of Remembrance,” the board said.
The €500,000 Journey of Light memorial, designed by Dublin-based Studio Negri with Hennessy & Associates, featured a covered passageway, lit at night and flanked by fossilised limestone walls and waterfalls. It was to be put up behind Oisín Kelly’s Children of Lir monument commemorating the 1916 Rising, in line with the Irish flag, with the State apology to abuse victims inscribed at child’s-eye level.
The proposal also sought a gated opening in the railings along Parnell Square West to access the memorial and new service access gates to Parnell Square North on a 2,140sq m site.
The Journey of Light was chosen in July last year as the memorial for abuse victims by a committee set up by the Department of Education following a year-long design competition.