The Building Boom Is Over!

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  • #710029

    GregF
    Participant

    So the Building Boom is over. The Celtic Tiger has lost it’s roar. The No vote sums up this pessimism somewhat and the general mood of the nation when compared to years ago when we were saying Yes to everything.

    Building sites are finishing up as the cranes disappear form the skyline. Any proposed schemes have been put on hold or scrapped, ie the 32 storey tower at Heuston station, the U2 tower as well. Social housing schemes are under threat too, ie St. Michaels Estate Inchicore, Dominic Street flats, etc…Developers have made their money and are now doing a runner, greedy bastards that they are.

    So after about 15 years of a building boom what have we got……anything worth a mention?

    However, I don’t think we ever got that signature building or buildings to mark our cities and the era of the Celtic Tiger.

    An opportunity lost?

    BTW There’s still plenty of derelict sites in Dublin as well as run down and neglected streets.

    At least they’ve made a start on Lansdowne Road of which I hope they are committed to finish!

  • #801017

    Anonymous

    I’ve had three days of Leonard Cohen coming in the windows, then Frawleys gets the chop and now this!

    You need to read Kieran Rose in the Irish Times today (yesterday, whatever), he reckons Dublin could be ‘the next global creative city’!

    We just have get rid of our limiting mindsets!

    Kieran Rose is pretty much in charge of planning in this city, so he would know what he’s takling about.

  • #801018

    Anonymous

    And Venice needs to get rid of its limiting mindset:

    (Dublin – Approved by K. Rose but blocked by ABP)

  • #801019

    Anonymous

    Devin, I think Venice is one of those cities that’s lost out! ‘These cities are trapped by their past’

    OT: The economy is like a children’s story. We had a few pages of celtic Tigger and now it’s Eeore’s turn, later on it’ll be Piglet and then Pooh.

    Back OT again, but only slightly, that Opinion piece by Kieran Rose in the IT is a hoot. I mean, on one level it’s fantastic that our planning officials are out there probing the deeper recesses, philosophically, but stitching together a patchwork of ideas into a blanket theory is one thing if your going to use it as a wall hanging, but it’s another thing entirely if you’re going to use it to judge planning applications.

    We’ve seen Rose’s ‘creative test’ philosophy in action before. Didn’t his planner’s report on the Ballsbridge development include the pivitol observation, that ‘your view of the merits of the development hinge on whether you have an inherently creative, or a conservative outlook’. I can’t remember the exact quote, but it was something like that.

    I remember the first reply I got when I posted that quote on the One Berkley Court -132m tower thread was something like ‘fair enough, that seems about right’, which it does until you realize that it just puts a veneer of objectivity on what remains a subjective choice.

    Worse than that, it’s a mindset that equates big and shiny with ‘creative’. He may deny this, but that’s what comes across as one of the planks of his theory. If you don’t go along with this, it follows that, in Kieran Rose’s eyes, you are part of ‘resistances’ which ‘are at work in Dublin today’

    I don’t know who Bonnie Kahn is, but Rose quotes Richard Florida, who quotes her?: ”A great city has two hallmarks: tolerance for strangers and intolerance for mediocrity”. If that’s not, itself, an example of a ‘limited mindset’ I don’t know what is! Surely there may be a few more ‘hallmarks’ to a great city than that.

    Rose decries people who have a ‘rigid ideological position’, while coming dangerously close to expounding one himself.

    I think Rose’s theory of ‘city making’ has some merit, but it needs a lot more work. I, for one, would like to see him put a few more planks in his theory before I’d go jump up an down on it.

  • #801020

    Anonymous

    I found the Rose article annoying, it seemed to equate a bent for preservation and conservation with homophobia.

    I hate this false dichotomy between a taste for radical change and a desire to preserve what is valuable about the past; mediocrity is often the result of trying to privilege one of these over the other.

  • #801021

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    I hate this false dichotomy between a taste for radical change and a desire to preserve what is valuable about the past; mediocrity is often the result of trying to privilege one of these over the other.

    Well put.

    The article in question:

    Dublin could be a ‘creative city’ if we get rid of limiting mindsets.

    Successful, dynamic, exciting cities are ones that embrace diversity and openness and plan to meet people’s real needs, rather than adhering to ideological positions, writes Kieran Rose .

    IN THE Rise of the Creative Class , Richard Florida writes: “We live in a time of great promise. We have evolved economic and social systems that tap human creativity and turn it into economic value as never before. This in turn creates an unparalleled opportunity to raise our living standards, build a more humane and sustainable economy, and make our lives more complete.”

    Florida documents the centrality of creative industries and creative workers in the new economy and in global competitiveness; and how openness to diversity, especially in relation to gay people and people from diverse backgrounds and other countries, is critical to success.

    Creative workers are those who add economic value through their creativity. They include scientists, engineers, designers, artists and those employed in knowledge-based industries. Increasingly, cities are drivers of national economies and are successful largely because creative people from around the world want to live there.

    From his research, Florida found that people were drawn to places that were diverse, tolerant and open to new ideas. He writes of “creative ecosystems – habitats open to new people and ideas”.

    Places with a high concentration of gay people tend to have higher rates of innovation and economic growth. Florida is not arguing that gay people cause cities to be successful, but that our presence in large numbers is “an indicator of an underlying culture that’s openminded and diverse”, and thus conducive to creativity and attractive to creative workers. A place that welcomes gay people welcomes all kinds of people.

    He quotes Bonnie Kahn, who writes: “A great city has two hallmarks: tolerance for strangers and intolerance for mediocrity.”

    The Florida approach links a wide range of issues such as globalisation, economic growth and prosperity, diversity and creativity, equality and social justice, planning and city-making. Economic success is key; it is fundamental to social success and should be welcomed for the life opportunities it offers. It is not to be decried, as it is by some; prosperity, it would seem, is good for them but dangerous for others.

    Issues of social justice and equality are crucial. In a paper on educational disadvantage, Creating a Place for All in the Knowledge Economy and the Learning Society , John Sweeney, senior social policy analyst with the National Economic and Social Council, rebuts a negative mindset, among even the well-intentioned, that discounts Ireland’s economic success. He argues that “our economic performance is much more part of the solution than part of the problem when it comes to ensuring a better quality of life for all”.

    Florida makes a related point when he says there is a huge reservoir of untapped creative potential that is being squandered because of social exclusion and argues that we must strive to tap the full creative capabilities of every single human being. Addressing these issues “is not only socially and morally just; it is an economic imperative for any society interested in long-term innovation and prosperity”.

    There are common themes across these issues: there are two mindsets, liberating or limiting.

    The liberating mindset is characterised by embracing diversity; having high ambitions for a better quality of life for all; a confidence in our ability to deliver positive change; openness; flexibility; responsiveness to changed circumstances; and prioritising real people’s lives over abstract ideological positions. This approach can deliver progress and optimise opportunities in all areas, whether social, economic or city-making.

    The limiting or fearful mindset is characterised by being change-averse; having low ambitions; a lack of confidence; a resistance to diversity; and sacrificing ordinary people’s life opportunities to a glorification of either a past that never was or a rigid ideological position.

    Max Page’s study of the redevelopment of New York touches on all of these issues, including diversity and immigration. He argues that in the battles over new buildings, demolition and planning lay “the fundamental tension between a celebration of the metropolis – its dynamism and diversity – and a profound nostalgia born of a fear for what the modern city portended”.

    Similar resistances are at work in Dublin today. Florida puts it well when he says new creative cities can emerge and surpass established players very quickly. He analyses how some cities lose out: “these cities are trapped by their past”, in the culture and attitudes of a bygone age, and so innovation and growth shift to new places.

    Florida brings together issues of economic growth, creativity, equality, diversity, social justice, planning and city-making in a challenging and productive way.

    This approach provides a wide agenda for change that could involve a broad range of agencies in an alliance for progress. This could include central and local Government; planning authorities; trade-union and business interests; equality, social justice and community organisations; economic development agencies; private enterprises; and the development sector.

    Peter Hall’s Cities in Civilization analyses the evolution of creative cities such as Los Angeles, London, New York and others. He wonders where the next global creative city will be and concludes that it will be “a special kind of city, a city in economic and social flux with large numbers of new and young arrivals, mixing and merging into a new kind of society”.

    This sounds like Dublin. It could be Dublin, but only if we get rid of our limiting mindsets and are ambitious, open and determined to succeed.

    Kieran Rose is chairman of the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network, a board member of the Equality Authority, a member of the consultative panel of FuturesIreland, and a planner with Dublin City Council. The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the views of any of these organisations.

    Good to see that the old opposition between the antients and the moderns is alive and well!

  • #801022

    admin
    Keymaster

    …why can I see this turning into the standard old versus new argument?

    I have no problem with new architecture, as long as it doesn’t degenerate into an exercise in egotism. I sometimes wonder how many buildings are desgined deliberately to clash with their surrounding environments simply as a means of drawing attention to the architect.

  • #801023

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    I found the Rose article offensive, it seemed to equate a bent for preservation and conservation with homophobia.

    I hate this false dichotomy between a taste for radical change and a desire to preserve what is valuable about the past; mediocrity is often the result of trying to privilege one of these over the other.

    Very well put. I wonder what David Norris’s opinion was of the piece…

    Devins snap of Venice is a hoot and most appropriate.

    While grandstanding as a progressive agenda, imo in reality Rose’s “vision” is restricted and dangerous. It is narrowed by what to me seems an ideologically-driven pseudo-modernist dogma. He doesnt seem to get the basics regarding the need to keep worthwhile period buildings – while also encouraging good quality new development where appropriate. Imo his outlook of new-and-shiny-is-good-while-old-is-bad is a type of world view that is allowing significant decay to occur on Thomas, James, and other Streets.

    I find it depressing that it is not only Rose, but also Glic Dick Gleeson that seem to be focused only on The Big, New, and Shiny – see http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5804 – meanwhile key city centre streets, such as Westmorland, are dying in front of our eyes. Rather than moving on protecting essential urban fabric, I would argue, that the lads are by way of flag-waving on much higher projects, rendering site values far more profitable than existing building values – and thus, are in effect encouraging dereliction and blight. 🙁

    Back on topic; tbh we have had a boom unprecedented since the 18th century – London has got the Gerkin in the same time; do we have a similar land mark? Perhaps not. But on the other hand, we have been fortunate to get some good quality regeneration where previously we had rot. To get the ball rolling, a few examples I’d propose:

    The Harcourt Building:
    http://www.profileproperties.com/harcourt.whtm

    Mick Wallaces “Little Italy”:
    http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4876

    Dunnes Stores on Sth Gt Georges Street (though not it’s mimic on Henry St :mad:)

    Also the developments at Grand Canal Dock (with the exception of the ghastly 60’s-style tower on the bridge) seem to be reasonably good quality – and, despite some problems, I’d also throw in Paddy Kellys other development on the west side of Smithfield.

    And for fun – while also noting a job well done in retrofitting carbuncles, the Marlborough Street Car-park, and the Drury Street Car-park: http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=1269

  • #801024

    Anonymous

    So that’s a +1 then?

  • #801025

    Anonymous

    @gunter wrote:

    So that’s a +1 then?

    😀

    Ah so youve discovered the secret +1 smiley; Sssshh – we dont want anybody else finding out!!!

  • #801026

    Anonymous

    Limerick city’s building boom is set to continue for another 2 or 3 years going well.
    There are are a number of shopping centres and office blocks currently under construction as well as the regeneration of the two troubled estates.

  • #801027

    Anonymous

    @poxyshamrock wrote:

    Limerick city’s building boom is set to continue for another 2 or 3 years going well.
    There are are a number of shopping centres and office blocks currently under construction as well as the regeneration of the two troubled estates.

    Im hearing disturbing reports as to advanced dereliction having set in in parts of Limericks Georgian Quarter – care to shed any light, PS?

  • #801028

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    I found the Rose article annoying, it seemed to equate a bent for preservation and conservation with homophobia.

    The guy was arguing that cities that attract creative people, including those who are gay, are more likely to suceed. It’s the opposite of homophobia!!

    This is supported by a recent article by David McWilliams on the same subject titled

    Drag-queen bingo proves Ireland has hit jackpot available at this link:

    http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/03/19/drag-queen-bingo-proves-ireland-has-hit-jackpot

    and if you think that’s homophobic, grow up!
    :p

  • #801029

    Anonymous

    @sunnydub wrote:

    The guy was arguing that cities that attract creative people, including those who are gay, are more likely to suceed. It’s the opposite of homophobia!!

    and if you think that’s homophobic, grow up!
    :p

    If you think that’s what notjim was saying, you misunderstood. Read his comment again, and don’t be in such a rush to take offence.

  • #801030

    Anonymous

    That ‘gay community has the creative people’ connection doesn’t stand up, not statistically anyway.

    For every gay man who might be 2% more creative and design conscious than your average man, there’s a gay woman with the dress sense of a farmer. These things balance themselves out.

  • #801031

    Anonymous

    Some farmers are very stylish.

  • #801032

    Anonymous

    And some gay guys are as creative as a lumberjack (if you get my meaning) – all these stereotypes are pish anyway. I must read Mr Rose’s little essay, but if planners start getting philosophical, reach for your revolver.

    Places with a high concentration of gay people tend to have higher rates of innovation and economic growth. Florida is not arguing that gay people cause cities to be successful, but that our presence in large numbers is “an indicator of an underlying culture that’s openminded and diverse”, and thus conducive to creativity and attractive to creative workers. A place that welcomes gay people welcomes all kinds of people.

    Having given Mr Rose’s piece a thorough skim (which is what it’s worth), it simply equates with the modern planner’s desire to be ‘business-friendly’ (creativity = economic success, and similar truisms). It’s a fallacy to think that ‘tolerance’ (how deep?) of one group equates with a wider range of tolerance of other groups or that necessarily ‘openness’ will lead to economic success. it’s the old debate about structure and agency and that’s too big for this post.

  • #801033

    Anonymous

    @gunter wrote:

    I’ve had three days of Leonard Cohen coming in the windows, then Frawleys gets the chop and now this!

    You need to read Kieran Rose in the Irish Times today (yesterday, whatever), he reckons Dublin could be ‘the next global creative city’!

    We just have get rid of our limiting mindsets!

    Kieran Rose is pretty much in charge of planning in this city, so he would know what he’s takling about.

    In the 6 weeks or so since I last put finger to keyboard I’ve been struck down by the general ennui and malaise that seems to be effecting the country. This fascinating debate on the pink vote is as interesting as the forums have been for a while now

    All I can say is that I’m up to me bollocks in work, even more so since “thedownturn”. Developers still want to develop, it’s the banks that have stagnated everything. As a consequence live projects are having their programmes cut and budgets are being squeezed – all of which creates workload. As does the classic office ploy of using economically straitened times to rid the workplace of overpaid wasters. Paradoxically. the good thing is that, as developers try to get funding, they must show evidence of cash flow so they’re paying fees.

    we all need to hang tight – it’s the 7 year itch. we nosedived in 87ish, 94ish, 01ish and now 08ish. roll on 2010

    BTW – I thought Kieran Rose was no longer “the man” in planning terms

  • #801034

    Anonymous

    @hutton wrote:

    Im hearing disturbing reports as to advanced dereliction having set in in parts of Limericks Georgian Quarter – care to shed any light, PS?

    That’s regarding the development of the Opera Centre shopping centre on Patrick St.
    Construction was set to begin in January 2005, but continuous setbacks means that it is still on the planning board.
    Firstly alot of Georgian buildings were to be demolished to make way for this mammoth development, then with a bit of fuss it was sent back to be redesigned so that the buildings could be kept.
    Now it appears that the developers still want to go ahead and knock a few georgian buildings which are gone beyond repair in their opinion.

    There is also a lot of derelict georgian buildings scattered around the city, one of which is ready to collapse and is currently being held in place by scaffolding and steal bars.

  • #801035

    Anonymous

    @gregf wrote:

    So the Building Boom is over. The Celtic Tiger has lost it’s roar. …..
    So after about 15 years of a building boom what have we got……anything worth a mention?

    in the spirit of the moment ….NO !

    @gregf wrote:

    However, I don’t think we ever got that signature building or buildings to mark our cities and the era of the Celtic Tiger.

    Au contraire the buildings we got exactly surmise the era of the Celtic Tiger, but not in the one would have hoped. If Art reflects life then Architecture reflects society.

  • #801036

    Anonymous

    If measured by standards the celtic tiger era was a race to the bottom, epitomised by the standard of construction in the vast majority of the residential developments constructed over the last 15 years.

    as regards to signiture ‘of its moment’ building, perhaps the Ranelagh Multi-Denominational School?

    it has all the features of circa 2000 architecture.. eroded forms… natural strong finishes….interwoven dedicated spaces.

    http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4439&highlight=Ranelagh

  • #801037

    Anonymous

    @henno wrote:

    as regards to signiture ‘of its moment’ building, perhaps the Ranelagh Multi-Denominational School?
    it has all the features of circa 2000 architecture.. eroded forms… natural strong finishes….interwoven dedicated spaces.
    http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4439&highlight=Ranelagh

    Henno you seem like an decent bloke but in all fairness can we hand on heart and with a serious face actually put this building forward as a signature of its time, marke of an Era (Celtic TIger).
    If thats it then things are worse than I thought.
    @henno wrote:

    If measured by standards the celtic tiger era was a race to the bottom, epitomised by the standard of construction in the vast majority of the residential developments constructed over the last 15 years.

    I love the way its everyones fault but the designers… most architects will line up the builders, sub-contractors, nimbys and local grannys in front of them before taking any flak for abject design failures .. Berties MO in more ways than one has infected elements of Irish society. I had some faint hope there was some design talent in this country , but reading into the reaction as the tower crumbles Im less and less inclined to believe that, it looks like a total and utter systemic failure in developing anything resembling an Irish movement or style. On the plus side badly designed buildings were in fact very poorly constructed, so give it another 20 years and most will be up for replacement.

  • #801038

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    I love the way its everyones fault but the designers… most architects will line up the builders, sub-contractors, nimbys and local grannys in front of them before taking any flak for abject design failures .. Berties MO in more ways than one has infected elements of Irish society. I had some faint hope there was some design talent in this country , but reading into the reaction as the tower crumbles Im less and less inclined to believe that, it looks like a total and utter systemic failure in developing anything resembling an Irish movement or style. On the plus side badly designed buildings were in fact very poorly constructed, so give it another 20 years and most will be up for replacement.

    my opinion is that it is the whole system from planning to occupation thats the failure.

    The planning system takes no account of construction methodology, energy conservation, or building standards. This is left to a defunct haphazard building control system, under the LAs remit, who claim a 10-15% of new build inspection sto be a success…………………. ridiculous.

    the idea of self certification, or external certification, by private professionals is a joke.many of these professionals do not keep uptodate with changing regulations, best practises or new construction systems. The idea of 5 – 6 site vists as being adequate to certify a new dwelling build shouldnt have been accepteable, but became the industry norm. With todays standards it is IMPOSSIBLE to properly certify a dwelling with the same standard of inspection, yet this norm hasnt and will not change until the whole certifcation process is disected in depth. I realise im focusing on dwellings but this is where i feel the biggest failure in standards has happened.

    Im my opinion, planning should be divided into two separate entities. The ‘in principle’ planning can be granted, but no work should proces until the ‘in practise’ planning is granted. This ‘in practise’ planning should be a determination on all the construction elements (structure, fire, materials, guarding etc) and systems (ventilation, energy conservation, acoustic, health and safety etc) involved in the work. Planners should either be construction professionals or have internal consultant assistants in determining this ‘in practise’ planning permission. All construction professionals proposed to be involved during the project should be named and vetted prior to commencement.

    The ad hoc lassiez-faire system we currently have facilitates unscrupulous or uneducated ‘professionals’ and ‘cowboy’ contractors.

  • #801039

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    Henno you seem like an decent bloke but in all fairness can we hand on heart and with a serious face actually put this building forward as a signature of its time, marke of an Era (Celtic TIger).
    If thats it then things are worse than I thought.

    I love the way its everyones fault but the designers… most architects will line up the builders, sub-contractors, nimbys and local grannys in front of them before taking any flak for abject design failures .. Berties MO in more ways than one has infected elements of Irish society. I had some faint hope there was some design talent in this country , but reading into the reaction as the tower crumbles Im less and less inclined to believe that, it looks like a total and utter systemic failure in developing anything resembling an Irish movement or style. On the plus side badly designed buildings were in fact very poorly constructed, so give it another 20 years and most will be up for replacement.

    BoB your delight in seeing projects in ur own country fail is so frustrating. Why do u enjoy it so much?

    An architect can’t take sole responsibility for the failure of a building project just as much as they can’t take full credit for a successful one. A good building will be produced when the entire design team. contractor, client and end user are committed to building a quality, well designed project. Unfortunately for much of the Celtic tiger era developers and contractors ( and many architects) were concerned solely with building as many units as possible, as fast as possible.

    Having said that I really don’t think u can honestly say that the standard of planning, urban design and architecture hasn’t improved a huge amount in the last 15 years. Its definitely not perfect and there’s a long way to go but still we’ve made huge advances.

    Ranelagh is probably a good example of how the general standard of design has improved. We haven’t made any shout out loud, ‘landmark’, Bilbao effect buildings but who cares. We need to raise the level of awareness of good design and sustainable living types etc. Then we’ll have made huge leaps to safeguarding our heritage and improving the built environment.

  • #801040

    Anonymous

    I’m not convinced that creating an “iconic” building like the Bilbao Guggenheim meant that every Jose Public was jumping out of their bed in the morning eager to swap their own gaff for a little titanium-clad residential masterpiece.

    It’s going to take a lot more than the odd megabuild here and there to open Irish eyes to the possibilities of clever residential architecture – and that’s why I believe that Ranelagh Multidenominational School is a realistically “aspirational” level of design. To own something similar is a far more achievable, more intimate, more realistic goal that people can grasp and be inspired by.

    I’m not sure that anyone looks at the Guggenheim and thinks: “I’m gonna have one of those. Just slightly smaller, less shiny, with a garden….”

  • #801041

    Anonymous

    Yep, Thats exactly what I;m saying. We don’t need icons we need a good general standard.

  • #801042

    Anonymous

    @hutton wrote:

    Very well put. I wonder what David Norris’s opinion was of the piece…

    Devins snap of Venice is a hoot and most appropriate.

    While grandstanding as a progressive agenda, imo in reality Rose’s “vision” is restricted and dangerous. It is narrowed by what to me seems an ideologically-driven pseudo-modernist dogma. He doesnt seem to get the basics regarding the need to keep worthwhile period buildings – while also encouraging good quality new development where appropriate. Imo his outlook of new-and-shiny-is-good-while-old-is-bad is a type of world view that is allowing significant decay to occur on Thomas, James, and other Streets.

    I find it depressing that it is not only Rose, but also Glic Dick Gleeson that seem to be focused only on The Big, New, and Shiny – see http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5804 – meanwhile key city centre streets, such as Westmorland, are dying in front of our eyes. Rather than moving on protecting essential urban fabric, I would argue, that the lads are by way of flag-waving on much higher projects, rendering site values far more profitable than existing building values – and thus, are in effect encouraging dereliction and blight. 🙁

    Back on topic; tbh we have had a boom unprecedented since the 18th century – London has got the Gerkin in the same time; do we have a similar land mark? Perhaps not. But on the other hand, we have been fortunate to get some good quality regeneration where previously we had rot. To get the ball rolling, a few examples I’d propose:

    The Harcourt Building:
    http://www.profileproperties.com/harcourt.whtm

    Mick Wallaces “Little Italy”:
    http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4876

    Dunnes Stores on Sth Gt Georges Street (though not it’s mimic on Henry St :mad:)

    Also the developments at Grand Canal Dock (with the exception of the ghastly 60’s-style tower on the bridge) seem to be reasonably good quality – and, despite some problems, I’d also throw in Paddy Kellys other development on the west side of Smithfield.

    And for fun – while also noting a job well done in retrofitting carbuncles, the Marlborough Street Car-park, and the Drury Street Car-park: http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=1269

    Thank you for articulating my inner fury over this fucking guff masquerading as urbanist insight. If dick mcglick and this eejit want to foster creative capital (awful term) use whatever policy shaping powers they have to drive this agenda, not chin stroking nonsense. There hasn’t been a neighbourhood in the city since 1980s temple bar where artistic types could pursue a commercial/creative lifestyle organically, if this city had decent public transport somewhere like Phibsboro would have evolved into their coveted boho quarter organically without the need for the SP of the city to spout such fucking arrogant shite. Let’s all go squat Liffey island and have a 1980s- Hamburg style takover of a defensible space and create our own cultural space. F### OFFICER-LED URBANISM.puerile nonsense

  • #801043

    Anonymous

    +1 to that as hutton would say.

  • #801044

    Anonymous

    tommyt: as we would say here: ‘Pure dead brilliant, man!’

  • #801045

    Anonymous

    I’m a little drunk.. hic.. but the sentiments expressed in this thread are odd to say the least.

    The “what has the Celtic tiger done for us” question is ludicrous by any objective or quantifiable measure. Life expectancy has risen more in the last 15 years than it has ever risen in a country outside of a post total war situation. Child mortality has gone from third world levels to nearly the top of the global table. Levels of education are now exceptional. The average and mean incomes have nearly trebled so that they are now at a level only surpassed by one or two other countries in the world. In Europe-wide surveys, the Irish are now generally found to be among the happiest and most content nationality in Europe. The idea of someone, even if long-term unemployed, would be unable to afford new shoes, clothes, food and heating bills never mind cars, foreign holidays and satellite TV is now considered exceptional. Anyone who thinks that nothing or little has been achieved in the last 15 years is seriously lacking perspective and has absolutely no inkling of what life was like before 1993.

    Yet the entire economic boom can be judged worthless and a failure because it hasn’t afforded some starchitect the opportunity to build the equivalent of a Gehry museum in Dublin?

    Dublin no longer looks and feels like a deserted post-WW2 bombed out shell of a city. It really was a shocking example of 20th century urban decay and dereliction 15 years ago. By all surveys and measures, it is now a significant – if not yet a major – European capital and is considered by most international surveys are pretty good city to live in. There are still significant problems but they are far more agreeable problems than those facing the urban heroin park that was the centre of Dublin 20 years ago.

  • #801046

    admin
    Keymaster

    I couldn’t agree more and would add that the naturally ventilated Fingal County Offices at Swords are a shining example of the gulf bridged between 1992 and the present. Commercial development in no way resembles pre boom days whilst purists will not rate schemes such Elm Park or Dundrum Town Centre (another award won on Wednesday Night) that have been built or schemes such as Dublin Central that are on the drawing board. To contextualise lets look back to Stokes Place or Ilac Centre because that was the height of both office and retail development before this kicked off.

    The Battersea Power Station project launched yesterday is what we should be looking to as the model when the next cycle of lending kicks in late 2009 i.e carbon neutral and linked to tube.

    Hopefully the economy will be more resilient than it was after the last commodity led collapse in the late 1970’s; an ability to ensure efficiency and competitiveness could be helped massively by some environmental responsibility. Thankfully the number of one off houses being built has remained at roughly 20% and not accelerated but 20%of 26,000 units is a lot better than 25% of 92,000 units; travelling around in an SUV and inviting all your mates around to your 5,000 sq foot pile 5 miles from anywhere is exactly why oil is $136 a barrell and why the boom has ended. Can we correct our psychology in time or has our addiction to a development pattern model 20 years out of date going to lead to another mass exodus? International companies want to do business in Ireland but only if it is an efficient model with all the bells and whistles such as zero carbon buildings and housing for ex pats in the right places.

  • #801047

    Anonymous

    @hutton wrote:

    I find it depressing that it is not only Rose, but also Glic Dick Gleeson that seem to be focused only on The Big, New, and Shiny

    @tommyt wrote:

    Thank you for articulating my inner fury over this fucking guff masquerading as urbanist insight. If dick mcglick and this eejit want to foster creative capital (awful term) use whatever policy shaping powers they have to drive this agenda …

    In fairness, Dick Gleeson and Kieran Rose should not be mentioned in the same sentence. There is a quantum difference between the two in terms of understanding of the city and critical analysis of development. Dick Gleeson is a brilliant planner, probably the best the city has ever had. Kieran Rose has no critical faculties working and has rubber-stamped almost every major city-centre development proposal he has dealt with in the past 3 to 4 years (I can substantiate that if necessary), which is then invariably heavily modified/refused on appeal.

    If the two of you are carrying a gripe against D Gleeson for some other reason, like you feel he ignores your area or something, maybe you should say so instead of making cheap digs on the internet against someone in a position.

  • #801048

    Anonymous

    @devin wrote:

    In fairness, Dick Gleeson and Kieran Rose should not be mentioned in the same sentence. There is a quantum difference between the two in terms of understanding of the city and critical analysis of development. Dick Gleeson is a brilliant planner, probably the best the city has ever had. Kieran Rose has no critical faculties working and has rubber-stamped almost every major city-centre development proposal he has dealt with in the past 3 to 4 years (I can substantiate that if necessary), which is then invariably heavily modified/refused on appeal.

    If the two of you are carrying a gripe against D Gleeson for some other reason, like you feel he ignores your area or something, maybe you should say so instead of making cheap digs on the internet against someone in a position.

    I am not making a cheap dig or carrying a gripe. As far as I have been informed, the ski-slope on J’OR’s Dublin Central scheme is desired by Glic Dick – if that is not a Big Shiny baubel, I dont know what is. Similarly the initial enthusiasm with which the Suas Liffey Cable Car was greeted was also disturbing. Since DG gave that interview to the Sunday Business Post, which I criticised for not focusing on city-centre areas, DCC brought in the bikes-for-billboards scheme; and then theres the daft and barmy public showers idea, and of course the so-called maximization strategy – which imo could lead to dereliction in the city-centre. On each of these matters, I find DCC planning dept to be seriously wanting.

    Maybe Glic Dick is “the best planner the city has ever had”, (and in fairness in the past he was someway progressive) but why is all of this shite happening under his watch?

  • #801049

    Anonymous

    @devin wrote:

    In fairness, Dick Gleeson and Kieran Rose should not be mentioned in the same sentence. There is a quantum difference between the two in terms of understanding of the city and critical analysis of development. Dick Gleeson is a brilliant planner, probably the best the city has ever had. Kieran Rose has no critical faculties working and has rubber-stamped almost every major city-centre development proposal he has dealt with in the past 3 to 4 years (I can substantiate that if necessary), which is then invariably heavily modified/refused on appeal.

    If the two of you are carrying a gripe against D Gleeson for some other reason, like you feel he ignores your area or something, maybe you should say so instead of making cheap digs on the internet against someone in a position.

    Point taken, but internet messageboards exist for cheap digs- I ‘ve been on the receivingend of plenty in my time. Am prone to putting the post up before engaging my noggin but you can’t defend any of our senior officials when they have done nothing to nurture the kind of agenda they pontificate about in real terms.

  • #801050

    Anonymous

    Regarding the Kieran Rose article, (if you take what he says at face value leaving aside any previous poor decisions he or his his associates have made) it makes a lot of sense, the future success of any urban area will depend on its ability change and adapt to attract the worlds brightest and best, becoming a city that has something to offer everybody

    Successful, dynamic, exciting cities are ones that embrace diversity and openness and plan to meet people’s real needs, rather than adhering to ideological positions, writes Kieran Rose .


    Having recently returned full time from being away i can say Dublin is a heck of a lot better than it was, some of the greatest additions to the city as far as i can see so far – the Luas, the Spike and probably the nicest thing for me – the influx of different peoples and cultures.

    Negatives – so many pretentious wan**rs, with their heads up their own ar*es:D

  • #801051

    Anonymous

    wearnicehats: I don’t wish to criticise your maths, but that would be 2015 wouldn’t it?

    In general I would agree with Devin on that senior planner (name rhymes with Nick Leeson).

    When you think back to what we were dealing with before, there’s no question that our senior planning officials have come a long way. The same would be true, to some extent, of most of them (with a few stand out exceptions), but for all their forward looking qualities, it’s their deeper appreciation of what we have that I find lacking.

    I’m up in the Baltic for a few days Hanseatic gable spotting (the way you do) and the diference in the appreciation of heritage as a resource is startling.

    I’ll come back to this later.

  • #801052

    Anonymous

    @johnglas wrote:

    if planners start getting philosophical, reach for your revolver.

    What about planners with philosophy degrees? Am I just supposed to seal off that part of my brain now that I’m a numbers man? The more diverse the backgrounds from which planners are drawn, within reason, the happier I’ll be.

  • #801053

    Anonymous

    @gunter wrote:

    wearnicehats: I don’t wish to criticise your maths, but that would be 2015 wouldn’t it?

    .

    I was referring to an upturn, unless you’re looking forward to the next crash.

  • #801054

    Anonymous

    My comment about planners and philosophy was ironic; clearly some have had a humour bypass as well. For the record, I was a planner and as part of reading for a degree went back to some planning literature which had a philosophical, or at least discursive, aspect. My point is that once planners (or most other professionals) go into philosophical/academic mode they part company with reality and certainly with practice on the ground; perfect systems, imperfect praxis.

  • #801055

    Anonymous

    Whilst I would submit that if planners focus exclusively on ‘reality’ and ‘practice on the ground’, we’re just going to be left with a big plate of fudge. Yes, philosophy is nebulous, contingent, vague and subjective, but to me that’s its strength. I’m not arguing it should dominate, but there has to be some room to provide resistance to the bean counters.

    Whether you admit it or not, most of your posts on here are informed by ‘philosophy’ in the broadest sense, simply because you generally argue for something that is not the status quo. If I’ve misread your previous contributions, my apologies. I was crediting you with a little bit of imagination- that characteristic that separates out the pen-pushing numbers men from the dreamers.

  • #801056

    Anonymous
    Devin wrote:
    In fairness, Dick Gleeson and Kieran Rose should not be mentioned in the same sentence. There is a quantum difference between the two in terms of understanding of the city and critical analysis of development. Dick Gleeson is a brilliant planner, probably the best the city has ever had. Kieran Rose has no critical faculties working and has rubber-stamped almost every major city-centre development proposal he has dealt with in the past 3 to 4 years (I can substantiate that if necessary), which is then invariably heavily modified/refused on appeal.

    What proportion of Mr Rose’s decisons, which have been appealed to the board, have been overturned/heavily modified, and how does that compare with his colleagues?

  • #801057

    Anonymous

    ctesiphon; I’m not suggesting there should be no philosophy at all – ‘Without a vision the people perish’, etc. The danger is that (cf. Mr Rose) an apparently discursive piece can be based on flawed premises (or at least be so sure of itself that it fails to see the counter-arguments). If that ‘vision’ is then reified so as to affect practice on the ground, it can have some very unexpected consequences. The British post-war planning philosophy of redevelopment of cities in a ‘comprehensive’ way was well intentioned (and had a ‘joined-up’ narrative), but it resulted in wholesale clearance, massive disruption and the espousal of an architectural approach which has left many British cities impoverished both socially and physically.
    If Mr rose’s intention was to be truly discursive and initiate a debate, fine. But you will know yourself that professionals talking to one another is only a very small part of the true constituency involved in urban ‘regeneration’ (however defined) and the professional consensus may be blind to some unpleasant realities. That is really the essence of my point.
    Thanks for the comments, by the way; I do generally adopt an anti-accepted point of view stance – it’s the only way to move the debate forward. None of it is personal and I do enjoy a good ‘philosophical’ ding-dong!

  • #801058

    Anonymous

    I’m not going to argue philosophy or design – I’ll lave that to me betters.

    Facts on business failures (liquidation, receivership, administration.) in Ireland:
    In 2005 there were 409 business failures, 104 or 25% were construction related
    In 2006 there were 345 business failures, 116 or 33% were construction related
    In 2007 there were 370 business failures, 165 or 45% were construction related

    In Q1 2008 there were 130 business failures, a 64% increase on the amount (81) in Q1 2007, and of those more than 60% were construction related. The trend has continued since then and H1 2008 will probably show the same.
    “Construction related” includes builders, developers, mech & elec, firms, specialist joineries, fitted kitchen manufacturers, etc.
    Collect your fees, gentlemen, he who hesitates ……………….
    KerryBog

  • #801059

    Anonymous

    @jimg wrote:

    I’m a little drunk.. hic.. but the sentiments expressed in this thread are odd to say the least.
    The “what has the Celtic tiger done for us” question is ludicrous by any objective or quantifiable measure. Life expectancy has risen more in the last 15 years than it has ever risen in a country outside of a post total war situation. Child mortality has gone from third world levels to nearly the top of the global table. Levels of education are now exceptional. The average and mean incomes have nearly trebled so that they are now at a level only surpassed by one or two other countries in the world. In Europe-wide surveys, the Irish are now generally found to be among the happiest and most content nationality in Europe. The idea of someone, even if long-term unemployed, would be unable to afford new shoes, clothes, food and heating bills never mind cars, foreign holidays and satellite TV is now considered exceptional. Anyone who thinks that nothing or little has been achieved in the last 15 years is seriously lacking perspective and has absolutely no inkling of what life was like before 1993.
    Yet the entire economic boom can be judged worthless and a failure because it hasn’t afforded some starchitect the opportunity to build the equivalent of a Gehry museum in Dublin?
    Dublin no longer looks and feels like a deserted post-WW2 bombed out shell of a city. It really was a shocking example of 20th century urban decay and dereliction 15 years ago. By all surveys and measures, it is now a significant – if not yet a major – European capital and is considered by most international surveys are pretty good city to live in. There are still significant problems but they are far more agreeable problems than those facing the urban heroin park that was the centre of Dublin 20 years ago.

    Yep your drunk all right . Grow up and get an education , your post is so full of holes Im juat about arsed to reply to it , its a pathetic arguement , for every stat you produce showing an improvement in standards I could produce 5 stats showing a negative trend in quality of life. And even the items you do list as being indicators of great progress, have counter arguments that negate their overall benefit. incomes trebling balance that against 10 fold increas in house prices in 15 years… jaysus ill stop now your just not worth debating if your really spouting that nonsense.

  • #801060

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    Yep your drunk all right . Grow up and get an education , your post is so full of holes Im juat about arsed to reply to it , its a pathetic arguement , for every stat you produce showing an improvement in standards I could produce 5 stats showing a negative trend in quality of life. And even the items you do list as being indicators of great progress, have counter arguments that negate their overall benefit. incomes trebling balance that against 10 fold increas in house prices in 15 years… jaysus ill stop now your just not worth debating if your really spouting that nonsense.

    Drunkeness is a temporary condition. You always come across as a clown.

    Unusually, there is nothing in that message that I am embarrassed about.

    Go ahead and list any widely accepted quality of life metrics which have declined in the last 15 years. I’ll not only match your list but double it. And you are an idiot of the highest order if you think in your parochial bitter little-Irelander mindset that house ownership affordability is a serious counter to improvements in measures which count human life and health particulary of measures of child mortality. You grubby little man.

    You really should try to experience life in at least a few other countries and cities even if just for a holiday. You might actually learn something about Ireland.

  • #801061

    admin
    Keymaster

    BoB

    I’ve been enjoying your little spats with some of the boards more argumentative types of late and as an ex-pat I’m facinated to see where you are based to know where Nirvana is because I like the natives am obviously losing out.

  • #801062

    Anonymous

    yep I knew Id regret getting into a debate with this fool but here goes, just cos you paraphrase Wilde dont delude yourself into thinking your having an original thought…

    @jimg wrote:

    Drunkeness is a temporary condition. You always come across as a clown.
    And you are an idiot of the highest order if you think in your parochial bitter little-Irelander mindset that house ownership affordability is a serious counter to improvements in measures which count human life and health particulary of measures of child mortality. You grubby little man.

    I know it must be hard for you to parralel process multiple concepts at the same time, that might explain why you made the mistake of thinking I was countering child mortality rates with housing affordability. If I had known you would have that difficulty Id have put the text in different colours.

    Your the one that implied mean incomes had improved to the point whereby we should be ecstatic, so what dumbass , if housing costs have increased at a faster rate we are net worse off, thats the counter arguement to your drivel about wages increase, we dont even have to bring the increase in personal debt into it.

    @jimg wrote:

    The average and mean incomes have nearly trebled so that they are now at a level only surpassed by one or two other countries in the world.

    I didnt even begin to address the wonderful benefits in healthcare your on about, granted a few pluses, but
    throw a stick out the door of your shoebox apartment and you will hit a plethora of failings in health services, just cos a few people gave up the dodgy fry cos they have to beat the traffic in the morning and heart disease is down a bit. Are you seriously saying the health service is in relativistic better shape and represnts some kind of value for money ROI and is somthing to be proud of.

    @PVC King wrote:

    BoB
    I’ve been enjoying your little spats with some of the boards more argumentative types of late and as an ex-pat I’m facinated to see where you are based to know where Nirvana is because I like the natives am obviously losing out.

    heh dude at this stage, aesthetically, socially, economically if you really dont think and therefore don’t believe your losing out on anything then i guess your not. Nice to see we have some posters from Sadir City though.

    back on topic .. building boom is over .thaks be to f*&Kno more chance of the same crap being constructed around the shop..Can someone sign me up for the guided tourist trail tours of landmark signature Celtic Tiger buildings I believe it starts and ends in Ranelagh some would have you believe.

  • #801063

    Anonymous

    BoB, the quote about temporary drunkenness was from Winston Churchill not Wilde. It’s the only part of your cybervom worth replying to

  • #801064

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    yep I knew Id regret getting into a debate with this fool but here goes, just cos you paraphrase Wilde dont delude yourself into thinking your having an original thought…

    I know it must be hard for you to parralel process multiple concepts at the same time, that might explain why you made the mistake of thinking I was countering child mortality rates with housing affordability. If I had known you would have that difficulty Id have put the text in different colours.

    Your the one that implied mean incomes had improved to the point whereby we should be ecstatic, so what dumbass , if housing costs have increased at a faster rate we are net worse off, thats the counter arguement to your drivel about wages increase, we dont even have to bring the increase in personal debt into it.

    I didnt even begin to address the wonderful benefits in healthcare your on about, granted a few pluses, but
    throw a stick out the door of your shoebox apartment and you will hit a plethora of failings in health services, just cos a few people gave up the dodgy fry cos they have to beat the traffic in the morning and heart disease is down a bit. Are you seriously saying the health service is in relativistic better shape and represnts some kind of value for money ROI and is somthing to be proud of.

    heh dude at this stage, aesthetically, socially, economically if you really dont think and therefore don’t believe your losing out on anything then i guess your not. Nice to see we have some posters from Sadir City though.

    back on topic .. building boom is over .thaks be to f*&Kno more chance of the same crap being constructed around the shop..Can someone sign me up for the guided tourist trail tours of landmark signature Celtic Tiger buildings I believe it starts and ends in Ranelagh some would have you believe.

    You are = you’re

  • #801065

    Anonymous

    @alonso wrote:

    BoB, the quote about temporary drunkenness was from Winston Churchill not Wilde. It’s the only part of your cybervom worth replying to

    @wearnicehats wrote:

    You are = you’re

    I’m crushed…
    Just let me know where to pick up the tickets for the aforementioned Grand tour of architectural monuments to the Celtic Tiger , I heard its limited to 7 people per trip as some of the shoeboxs being vistied on the way are too small to accomodate more. 😀 now that the building boom is over is there a chance we might get a boom in quality architectural design now , methinks not, but at least the punctuation will be top quality .

  • #801066

    Anonymous

    I worked with a guy once, and all he would do was bitch and moan and gripe. About everything. Every morning. Yadda yadda yadda. Never had any constructive advice, just bitch bitch bitch.

    It got pretty tired after a while.

  • #801067

    Anonymous

    I’ll put this as simply as possible. I know it won’t make any difference because you’ll ignore it as you haven’t a leg to stand on.
    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    for every stat you produce showing an improvement in standards I could produce 5 stats showing a negative trend in quality of life.

    Off the top of my head: child mortality, life expectancy, average income, average wealth, average educational attainment, job security and most surveys of happiness have improved dramatically in the last 15 years. Your turn. One each will do.

    And if earning nothing is compensated by cheaper housing, there are a couple of sub-saharan countries I could recommend where average income is under a $1000 a year; houses are cheap ‘though.

    I could actually listen to someone complain all day if the moaning contained a bit erudition, was expressed with intelligence, included some humour or displayed some novelty of thought. You are just an absolute bore.

  • #801068

    Anonymous

    @jimg wrote:

    I’ll put this as simply as possible. I know it won’t make any difference because you’ll ignore it as you haven’t a leg to stand on.

    Off the top of my head: child mortality, life expectancy, average income, average wealth, average educational attainment, job security and most surveys of happiness have improved dramatically in the last 15 years. Your turn. One each will do.

    And if earning nothing is compensated by cheaper housing, there are a couple of sub-saharan countries I could recommend where average income is under a $1000 a year; houses are cheap ‘though.

    I could actually listen to someone complain all day if the moaning contained a bit erudition, was expressed with intelligence, included some humour or displayed some novelty of thought. You are just an absolute bore.

    if you believe that wealth creates happiness then you are deluded. and what’s the point of living longer if our lives are not worth living in the first place. the worship of money has come to ireland and it is absolutely NOT the answer to our spiritual problems.

  • #801069

    Anonymous

    I suppose poverty has no bearing on one’s mood either then ? However, if you believe that our lives are not worth living then there may be issues at work that neither money nor architecture can address.

    But we just might be moving off topic here :rolleyes:

  • #801070

    Anonymous

    @[B wrote:

    mickletterfrack[/B]]I’m crushed…
    Just let me know where to pick up the tickets for the aforementioned Grand tour of architectural monuments to the Celtic Tiger , I heard its limited to 7 people per trip as some of the shoeboxs being vistied on the way are too small to accomodate more. 😀 now that the building boom is over is there a chance we might get a boom in quality architectural design now , methinks not, but at least the punctuation will be top quality .

    and hopefully the spelling will improve also.

  • #801071

    Anonymous

    It is silly to pretend that there has not been an improvement in our situation in general and in the built environment in particular. The quality of building has been improved, some handsome buildings have been built. The question is not whether things have gotten better or not, they have gotten better; the question is whether the improvement been as great as it might be, given the circumstances, the boom.

    This site, or at least the community posting about Dublin, has two main factions; Jacobites, followers of Jane Jacobs, whose primary concern is the quality of the urban experience, and Royalist, those whose prime interest is in building as gestures, palaces as it were. I think both factions are dissatisfied and for almost the same reason, the Jacobites are unhappy because the initial intellectual energy underpinning the rebuilding of the city core, careful, modern but sympathetic infill seems to have petered out into ill-thought grasping at half-assed one-off schemes, the Royalists are unhappy because the most dramatic of these half-assed one-off schemes never seem to actually get built.

    What I found irritating about the Keiron Rose article is that he claim the wrong allies; he talked about creative types and communities, ethnic minorities and gays and the urban experience, Jacobites all and then argued for the opposite, siding against heritage and what he called nostalgia, what I would call a respect for the layered textured quality of the living city. You can’t believe that the most important thing about the city is its history and identity and its creative communities and then decide the most important thing is to throw up a few landmark buildings that could just as easily be built in Heuston Texas.

    I think tommyt nailed this. It is great that we now have a SoHo/soho area full of mid-priced Italian eateries and mid-level cultural institutions, every big city has one; but where is the new, edgy, artistic area that we lost to Temple Bar. It is great that Ranelagh is now an upend area full of elite facilities, but to get there it lost the faded bourgeois meets student village meets Baggotonia feel it had fifteen years ago and Baggot Street itself lost even earlier. Where is the new student area? The problem could be infrastructure; we need public transport to open up new areas. The only exception, I think, to our failure to gain new, distinct, organic areas are provided by the ethnic area, particularly in D1; everywhere else, we see big plans and DDDA-style community events and a belief in rejuvenation by gesture.

    I think we need to get more ambitious about infrastructure and maybe a bit more relaxed about landmarks.

  • #801072

    Anonymous

    Jacobites (even Jacobins?) and Royalists – I love it! One thought about ‘transitional’ areas: they may have a ‘faded elgance’ and attract a lot of cool ancillary uses, but the one thing that inevitably suffers is the building fabric itsef (shabby flats, no maintenance, a ‘twighlight zone’ feel where no-one apparently has any responsibility,etc.). It’s a real quandary of modern ‘development’ – everything has to be on a huge scale, so requiring high rents and ‘high added-value’ users (a fixation with urban planners), as a result of which all the small guys get crowded out. That is why demolition has to be strongly resisted unless there is an overwhelming case for it. For many modern urbanites it’s a case of ‘out of sight, out of mind’.

  • #801073

    Anonymous

    @shanekeane wrote:

    the worship of money has come to ireland and it is absolutely NOT the answer to our spiritual problems.

    ‘Spiritual problems’? We had nothing but problems in this country when we were all ‘spiritual’. When we lost god and found mammon the place improved drastically.

  • #801074

    Anonymous

    well one of my favourite streets is the Wexford-Camden street axis. I think there’s a proper buzz around there most nights and some days. It’s these areas that work – ones untouched by adminstrative meddling

  • #801075

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    It is great that Ranelagh is now an upend area full of elite facilities, but to get there it lost the faded bourgeois meets student village meets Baggotonia feel it had fifteen years ago and Baggot Street itself lost even earlier. Where is the new student area?
    .

    Ranelagh has sadly gone down hill with its ever expanding restaurants and coffee shops (I would love to a planning permission for something else) and the unwanted traffic they have brought to the area. As for the bed sits, they still exist in Ranelagh, you just don’t notice them with the amount of parked cars from non-residents visiting the un-elite (up market burger joints) facilities.

    Saying that, fifteen years ago, Ranelagh was a few pints in all of the pubs, bag of chips and a punch up in night owls sort of place.

  • #801076

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    I think we need to get more ambitious about infrastructure and maybe a bit more relaxed about landmarks.

    they go hand in hand…

  • #801077

    Anonymous

    Its not over. Its a dip. It happens in every country all the time. The world is shaky atm.

    The problem is the leaders of this country. The economist’s told them the signs, the peoples told them the signs and the signs around them told them the signs.
    What did the government do? ABSALOUTLEY nothing. This is why its a sudden crash in the builidng sector.

    It will pick up eventually It will never peak like the celtic tiger, but the country will balance out in a few years. The whole world is experiencing the depression atm. So would you all give yourself some slack here and calm down. This happened in the UK a generation ago. They have picked up, amazing isn’t it. Now would people stop focusing on only the negatives. Confidence can be restored and building can start again.

    Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham are experiencing boom times right now. The country isn’t though. Its about driving and asserting a region to prosper. The people are positive, so the economy is positive. Soaring high rises are being built in Liverpool right now.

    Limerick is an example in Ireland where development is driving ahead.

    Ireland and especially the f*** fianna fail have to learn to grow up, this is the lesson we need to learn after the self centering celtic tiger..

  • #801078

    Anonymous

    @onthejob wrote:

    ‘Spiritual problems’? We had nothing but problems in this country when we were all ‘spiritual’. When we lost god and found mammon the place improved drastically.

    What hes saying basically that its a reality shock, because if the celtic tiger was still roaring dazzingly heights

    our spirtuality will be – money our god.
    He has a point, No one is saying Ireland hasn’t improved. But I certainly don’t want to become deluded as a wealthy american going around money everything.

  • #801079

    Anonymous

    That’s outstanding stuff again from notjim! I can’t understand how a person can be so attached to the pointless bits of lawn on College Green, and then can go on to be so incisive in the rest of the urban debate.

    The dichotomy posed in the Rose article, and which is evident in the recent record of DCC Planning Department, the supposed choice between openess and innovation (change) and backward looking resistance to change (stagnation) is grounded in the fundamental question of whether a city is necessarily always in a state of flux, or whether a city can ever aspire to a state of ‘completeness’.

    I remember listening to some Scottish wunderkind (I don’t think it was Richard Murphy, but it could have been) giving a lecture at the RIAI a few years ago and when he came to some project at the Grass Market in Edinburgh, that the local planners had sought to clip his wings on, he quoted, with derision, the planner saying that ‘when this particular site is developed, there will only be one or two sites left to tackle and then the ‘old city’ will be finished’. The audience in the RIAI happilly laughed along with the derision, but I wondered at the time, and I still wonder, whether, as architects, we may be fundamentally wrong about this.

    Obviously it’s a more comfortable notion for an architect to always see the city as ever changing, as a canvas to be worked on, an unbridled opportunity for architectural expression. That way you get to use words like dynamic, creative, innovative to describe fee-generating mega-schemes that are really just big, derivative, mediocrity.

    The alternative notion, that the city is the collective creation of others and that, through damage, neglect, bad judgement or other intervention, the city now needs mending, this notion hands a much more limited (and demanding) brief to the architect, and responsibility to the planner.

    In the old days urban planners were an under-educated bunch subservient to the technically better educated roads engineers and they had little or no understanding of the components of urbanism. Nowadays you can’t go to an urban design event in Dublin without tripping over half a dozen city planners in full ‘eager evening class’ mode. The problem is that the more the well meaning city planner, like Kieran Rose, starts to see things in urban design rather that urban planning terms, the more he is likely to be infected by the perceived architectural wisdom that all cities are in constant flux and the alternative to constant change is permanent stagnation.

    Cities like Dublin are not virtually complete set pieces like Venice, or inner city Paris, or Edinburgh, but they have a predominant urban character bequeathed by a predominant building period (in our case the 18th century) and this character could, and perhaps should, lead to an aspiration towards ‘completing the city’. This notion of ‘completing the city’ should not be interpreted in terms of getting out the black and white photographs and banging in a bit of pastiche everywhere there’s a gap in the streetscape or a 1960s office block, it means developing a comprehensive programme to combine the pro-active conservation of the existing building fabric with sensitive, contemporary, urban repair, where required, but all the time guided by a philosophy of fixing what’s broken, mending what’s damaged, creativity in context, imagination, but with respect.

    As long as the predominant philosophy in architectural, and now planning circles, is change for the sake of demonsrtrating an openess to ‘progress’ and an ability to be detached from the past, every in-fill site in this city is going to be subject to development proposals that are the opposite of urban repair and the opposite of sensitivity to a valued existing context. Random ‘Iconic’ landmarks will continue to abound, there will be no way to get the toothpaste back in the tube.

    Dublin has fudged this issue for too long. Every development Plan comes out with wads of high minded aspirations for the ‘re-use of older buildings’ and respect for the ‘existing character’, but there’s never an overall statement that this city has a defined urban character and that the first objective of this plan is to protect, repair and enhance this urban character, not chuck it out by grasping at every proposal that promises a bit of gleaming change.

    No developer would waste money of plans like those we’ve seen for Frawleys or the Clarence hotel if there was a strong statement from DCC on what the intrinsic character of this city actually is. As long as the messages coming down from DCC remain the muddled, contradictory, visionless, pick and mix that they are now, the character of this city will continue to erode to the point where we’ll be having discussions about whether it even exists at all, if we’re not at that point already.

  • #801080

    Anonymous

    @goneill wrote:

    What proportion of Mr Rose’s decisons, which have been appealed to the board, have been overturned/heavily modified

    Examples of ‘Kieran Rose culture’ would be:

    COUNCIL DECISION OVERTURNED

    Hickey’s Fabrics site, Parkgate Street – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/221587.htm

    Charlemont Place – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/218778.htm

    Windmill site, Digital Hub (2006) – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/221294.htm

    School Street (behind Thomas Street) – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/217151.htm

    Harcourt Terrace Garda Station – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/225560.htm

    12-13 Upr Dorset Street (Brinsley Sheridan birthsite house) – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/222271.htm

    COUNCIL DECISION SIGNIFICANTLY MODIFIED

    Trinity College site, Pearse Street – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/222104.htm

    Infirmary Road – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/219897.htm

    ESB building, Fleet Street – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/226157.htm

    Bridgefoot Street – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/223337.htm

    Little Britain Street – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/224378.htm

    Clancy Barracks – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/216060.htm

    Arnotts (changes requested by ABP]http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/224640.htm[/url]

    Vacant site close to Four Courts, Ormond Qy Upr – http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/213115.htm

    (Link back to DCC details on the right of each ABP page.)

    @goneill wrote:

    and how does that compare with his colleagues?

    Hard to say exactly but, put it this way, whenever there’s a significant refusal by the council &#8211]Boland’s Mill[/URL] or <a href="http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4586/07&theTabNo=2&backURL=Search%20Criteria%20>%20Hume Street Hospital– there’s never any evidence of Mr. Rose’s involvement!

  • #801081

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    It is silly to pretend that there has not been an improvement in our situation in general and in the built environment in particular. The quality of building has been improved, some handsome buildings have been built. The question is not whether things have gotten better or not, they have gotten better; the question is whether the improvement been as great as it might be, given the circumstances, the boom…….
    I think tommyt nailed this. It is great that we now have a SoHo/soho area full of mid-priced Italian eateries and mid-level cultural institutions, every big city has one; but where is the new, edgy, artistic area that we lost to Temple Bar. It is great that Ranelagh is now an upend area full of elite facilities, but to get there it lost the faded bourgeois meets student village meets Baggotonia feel it had fifteen years ago and Baggot Street itself lost even earlier. Where is the new student area? The problem could be infrastructure; we need public transport to open up new areas. The only exception, I think, to our failure to gain new, distinct, organic areas are provided by the ethnic area, particularly in D1; everywhere else, we see big plans and DDDA-style community events and a belief in rejuvenation by gesture.
    I think we need to get more ambitious about infrastructure and maybe a bit more relaxed about landmarks.

    @gunter wrote:

    That’s outstanding stuff again from notjim! I can’t understand how a person can be so attached to the pointless bits of lawn on College Green, and then can go on to be so incisive in the rest of the urban debate.
    The dichotomy posed in the Rose article, and which is evident in the recent record of DCC Planning Department, the supposed choice between openess and innovation (change) and backward looking resistance ……..In the old days urban planners were an under-educated bunch subservient to the technically better educated roads engineers and they had little or no understanding of the components of urbanism. Nowadays you can’t go to an urban design event in Dublin without tripping over half a dozen city planners in full ‘eager evening class’ mode. The problem is that the more the well meaning city planner, like Kieran Rose, starts to see things in urban design rather that urban planning terms, the more he is likely to be infected by the perceived architectural wisdom that all cities are in constant flux and the alternative to constant change is permanent stagnation.

    Cities like Dublin are not virtually complete set pieces like Venice, or inner city Paris, or Edinburgh, but they have a predominant urban character bequeathed by a predominant building period (in our case the 18th century) and thi…..

    ….
    Dublin has fudged this issue for too long. Every development Plan comes out with wads of high minded aspirations for the ‘re-use of older buildings’ and respect for the ‘existing character’, but there’s never an overall statement that this city has a defined urban character and that the first objective of this plan is to protect, repair and enhance this urban character, not chuck it out by grasping at every proposal that promises a bit of gleaming change.

    No developer would waste money of plans like those we’ve seen for Frawleys or the Clarence hotel if there was a strong statement from DCC on what the intrinsic character of this city actually is. As long as the messages coming down from DCC remain the muddled, contradictory, visionless, pick and mix that they are now, the character of this city will continue to erode to the point where we’ll be having discussions about whether it even exists at all, if we’re not at that point already.

    Could we ever a have a more Dublin-centric love fest than all this. Kieran Rose would be proud. Its brought a tear to my eye . Makes me want to go out an hug one of those handsome buildings. It was all worthwhile sure there was improvement . Ryanair are laying on extra flights from OECD countries for all those clammering to see the astounding qualtiy of our architectural remnants of the boom.

    Or maybe the building boom isnt over.. just ask the OPW they are up the walls renovating offices for fallen heroes.

    be a good fellow wearnicehats and run spell checker on that for me .

  • #801082

    Anonymous

    change the record you bitter little arsewipe

  • #801083

    Anonymous

    @shanekeane wrote:

    if you believe that wealth creates happiness then you are deluded. and what’s the point of living longer if our lives are not worth living in the first place. the worship of money has come to ireland and it is absolutely NOT the answer to our spiritual problems.

    Another clown. If you want to reference any sociology or economics studies which shows that happiness increases with poverty, go ahead. There is a very strong correlation between a person’s wealth and their general feeling of happiness and this has been established in study after study.

    If you actually believe this claptrap, I suggest you take all your savings and possessions of value and burn them in a fire while kneeling in prayer; I can confidently predict that the happiness you experience will be fleeting.

    This sort of nonsense can only be spouted by someone who has never even observed poverty; there is little happiness to be found in struggling to buy shoes for your children or provide them with decent food or keeping a house warm.

    I hate to break up the excellent discussion by notjim and gunter but this kind of observation – so divorced from any sort of reality or facts – is disturbing.

  • #801084

    Anonymous

    @jimg wrote:

    Another clown. If you want to reference any sociology or economics studies which shows that happiness increases with poverty, go ahead. There is a very strong correlation between a person’s wealth and their general feeling of happiness and this has been established in study after study.

    If you actually believe this claptrap, I suggest you take all your savings and possessions of value and burn them in a fire while kneeling in prayer; I can confidently predict that the happiness you experience will be fleeting.

    This sort of nonsense can only be spouted by someone who has never even observed poverty; there is little happiness to be found in struggling to buy shoes for your children or provide them with decent food or keeping a house warm.

    I hate to break up the excellent discussion by notjim and gunter but this kind of observation – so divorced from any sort of reality or facts – is disturbing.

    Well i guess we can conclude from your response that your a fairly poor person so, as you seem quite unhappy and irritable, sociology and economic studies show happiness increase with wealth or didnt you know.

    back to the two lads excellent discussion I believe we were at the part where one of them declares undying immortal love for the new Dublin and the rest of the country could take a flying jump. The best Irish archies could come up with given the wads of dosh floating around for the last 15 years was a bunch of neo modernist pastiches paying homage to some long dead icon who was feted as groundbreaking in their time but for some reason their design credo has remained popular and is still some how seen as groundbreaking. I wouldnt mind but those crap designs have also been to the detriment of ‘craft’, and skill,a whole generation of tradesmen have come through never having tackled or even seen a job wih some sort of redeming,challenging craft in its design. Architects have long since forgotten any sense of social or moral responsibility, they pander to the biggest buck which following on from your whole premise must make them a very happy lot.

  • #801085

    Anonymous

    Hmm.

    Okay…. but do you have anything to add? What would you like to see? Examples, or proposals? I’m open to being convinced by any argument, but all that you’re doing is criticising others rather than putting anything forward.

    What’s your alternative?

  • #801086

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    …paying homage to some long dead icon who was feted as groundbreaking in their time but for some reason their design credo has remained popular and is still some how seen as groundbreaking.

    Just wondering who you’re referring to?

  • #801087

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    Could we ever a have a more Dublin-centric love fest than all this. Kieran Rose would be proud. Its (missing apostrophe) brought a tear to my eye . Makes me want to go out an (assume “and”?) hug one of those handsome buildings. It was all worthwhile sure there was improvement (grammar?) . Ryanair are laying on extra flights from OECD countries for all those clammering to see the astounding qualtiy of our architectural remnants of the boom .

    Or maybe the building boom isnt (missing apostrophe) over.. just ask the OPW they are up the walls renovating offices for fallen heroes.

    be a good fellow wearnicehats and run spell checker on that for me .

    be a good fellow mickletterfrack and slag off foreigners so we can get rid of you again

  • #801088

    Anonymous

    @gunter wrote:

    I can’t understand how a person can be so attached to the pointless bits of lawn on College Green

    When I am Provost I am going to grow a Virginia creeper up the front facade just to annoy you!

  • #801089

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    When I am Provost I am going to grow a Virginia creeper up the front facade just to annoy you!

    Excellent! ‘New provost takes Trinity into the Ivy League’

    I’ll have myself carried by in a Sedan chair to check on progress.

  • #801090

    Anonymous

    Funny you should mention that – the lower facade of the West Front was indeed once thick with ivy. I must dig out the picture.

  • #801091

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    When I am Provost I am going to grow a Virginia creeper up the front facade just to annoy you!

    @gunter wrote:

    Excellent! ‘New provost takes Trinity into the Ivy League’

    Lol I love it – amidst all the acrimony of an increasingly bitter little thread, gunter and notjim restore a sense of humour 😀

  • #801092

    Anonymous

    @massamann wrote:

    Hmm.
    Okay…. but do you have anything to add? What would you like to see? Examples, or proposals? I’m open to being convinced by any argument, but all that you’re doing is criticising others rather than putting anything forward.
    What’s your alternative?

    fair questions,
    Im adding my opinion on the shockingly poorly designedpoorly laid out buildings and poor value for money that have spung up all over this country in recent times, especiall when compared to other developed nations.
    Id like to see Irish architects lead instead of follow, we do it in other fields, industrys and creative arts , I dont know why they cant do it in this field.
    its virtually impossible to find a good example in ireland, I thought the maternity wing in the CUH was okay but jaysus if you spent anytime there youd know its a complete joke, couple of hundred million later and some design awards and you have 30 people in the CORRIDOR waitng for consultations in rooms that are too small to accomodate more than 3 adults , whilst complee strangers gawp as another patient recieves a fetal scan 2 FEET from their faces , and dont try to grab a bite there on a rainy day, like a Tokyo subway train. I find it so amusing to spend time there and watch the nurses trip over the patients and everyone getting tetchy cos their ontop of eachother , the sad part is watching those heavily pregant try try to get comfortable in a waiting area more in touch with a dole queue than alleviative care but heh its ARTchitecture. Speaking of which why does the architectural industry consistently reward designers whose buildings fail in their primary purpose.
    Theres no need for an alternative, the boom is over, thankfully this will put a stop to the dross .
    Spending the next few months travelling in the US , France and Benelux , Im hoping whatever damage done to my cornea by the horrors on Irelands streets will be corrected by the visual splendour I know I will find there.
    you can go back to the love fest and jocularity now, I believe someone had pointed out the building boom was worthwhile because you can get a decent penne pasta dish . Would that be the sort or argument you find convincing …
    thnks for runing spelchecker erlier for me wearnicehats.. culd i trouble you again…atta boy.

  • #801093

    Anonymous

    @dave123 wrote:

    Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham are experiencing boom times right now. The country isn’t though. Its about driving and asserting a region to prosper. The people are positive, so the economy is positive. Soaring high rises are being built in Liverpool right now.

    Sadly you are so wrong. Visit all three cities, plus Leeds, Sheffield etc etc, same old story over developed, un bought hi-rise blocks.

  • #801094

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    Im adding my opinion on the shockingly poorly designedpoorly laid out buildings and poor value for money that have spung up all over this country in recent times, especiall when compared to other developed nations.

    Not sure I’d agree at all. I think in every nation I’ve visited in the last few years, the constant reminder is that we have lost the ability to make places and create successful cities. Open modernist planning (at the scale of the city-not the house) has seeped into our philosophy so much that all respect for proper urban structure, grain, enclosure and genius loci have all but disappeared.

    This is a general crisis in town planning and in architecture. Not just in Ireland. Certain cities with powerful mayors and forward looking planning departments have bucked the trend but they’re few and far between really.

    We need a return to careful planning and urban design and a new found respect for existing built fabric.

  • #801095

    Anonymous

    From what I’m hearing in the press, our betters / rulers, are thinking of using our tax dollars to bail out the builders through the ruse of giving first time buyers a helping hand…hopefully Cowen will show them who’s boss…but I’m not hopeful

  • #801096

    admin
    Keymaster

    He pretty much said there would be no further interference in the housing market on the late late last friday – remember he did not want to change stamp duty at all last time round, he was forced to do so under pressure from Bertie.

  • #801097

    Anonymous

    I don’t know, I have my suspicions…we can only hope, but with stories like these…

    Building industry will lobby State to aid first-time buyers aka themselves

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0904/1220372097973.html

    Developers cut prices, give interest free loans aka pyramid scheme

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2008/0904/1220372094509.html

    I think a fall in prices will aid first time buyers…the builders are insane

  • #801098

    Anonymous

    Building will pick up again.

    1. Once oil and world markets stabilize.
    2. When the war is over, MEANING with get that bush bas**** out and into jail
    3. Pick up of the European and US economies.
    4. And when People stop panicking.

    Irelands has a large economy now, are infastructure(improved a bit) we have population growth. We as a country has great attraction still for job creation. Today Ireland is well recognised. What this country is experiencing is a dip, not a downturn like the 80s. Our national debt and state of our country was nothing compared to the 80s

    So would people stop f**** been so petty, negative. and so bloody gloomy.

  • #801099

    Anonymous

    @dave123 wrote:

    Building will pick up again.

    1. Once oil and world markets stabilize.
    2. When the war is over, MEANING with get that bush bas**** out and into jail
    3. Pick up of the European and US economies.
    4. And when People stop panicking.

    Irelands has a large economy now, are infastructure(improved a bit) we have population growth. We as a country has great attraction still for job creation. Today Ireland is well recognised. What this country is experiencing is a dip, not a downturn like the 80s. Our national debt and state of our country was nothing compared to the 80s
    So would people stop f**** been so petty, negative. and so bloody gloomy.

    Dude your in cloud cuckoo land if you think we are econmicaly in better shape than the 80’s . As for the timeframe on your solutions to the problems your talking a decade or more.
    Another simplified comment about the national debt, did you get that soundbite from Brian cowen himself, add personal debt to the figure and we are in dire straits. Personal debt and national dent are in effect the same thing, they both have to be paid off one way or another by citizens of the state. Its complex but not terribly so but given your train of thought I dont think you ever will or want to truly understand the issues.

    These is no one panicking and very few people are being negative or overtly gloomy, if its pissing out of the heavens and I tell you its rainign cats and dogs, does that make me negative/gloomy or just a realist.
    As for panic i think people are showing great restraint considering un-employment is skyrocketing and alot of people or facing real ecnomic hardships and not imagined ones.

    Get out of that ivory tower boyo its been de-listed and is due for demolition.

    But I agree its not all gloom though ,
    at least we can sit back with a glass of Margaux and enjoy the esthetic beauty of all those wonderful buildings, schools, social, artistic, and sports complexes, roads, tunnels, bridges and transport networks we have built with the billions generated and borrowed. Thank you thank you thank you to the esteemed members of the professional institutions who drove this chariot of progress , your expertise in your noble fields of design and engineering marvel have not only created a landscape of modern masterpieces but your rounded learned sophistication and higher levels of education has also protected society and develop our civilsations finer liberal arts and humanities and ensured we didnt descend into a mire of soulless social depravity and vacous materialism. Your record of building achievement as well as your record of social advancement will stand for all time for all to see. Truly ARCHITECTS in the finest sense of the word , not only architects of the citys we live in but also architects of the society within these cities. 🙂

  • #801100

    admin
    Keymaster

    @dave123 wrote:

    Building will pick up again.

    1. Once oil and world markets stabilize.
    2. When the war is over, MEANING with get that bush bas**** out and into jail
    3. Pick up of the European and US economies.
    4. And when People stop panicking.

    Irelands has a large economy now, are infastructure(improved a bit) we have population growth. We as a country has great attraction still for job creation. Today Ireland is well recognised. What this country is experiencing is a dip, not a downturn like the 80s. Our national debt and state of our country was nothing compared to the 80s

    So would people stop f**** been so petty, negative. and so bloody gloomy.

    This thread has been annoying me for a while; BoBs latest drivel has tipped me over the edge 😡

    The building boom is as the title says over; but this will if someone sticks it in their calendar to reopen this in 3 years time I’m betting that this phase will be correctly diagnosed as a pause and not a destination in itself.

    To quote the great man “Wall St got drunk and now it has a hangover” but as Greenspan was quoted in the FT as saying the irrational nature of markets means that we move from a mindset of total euphoria to total dispear in a second for short periods whilst the truth lies somewhere in between.

    The commercial market will pick up in Q3 2009 with residential growing by Q2 2010; no Irish bank will fail and higher charges will result in sufficient profitability to sustain the next irrational bout of euphoria.

    Hopefully in the next incline planning considerations will be more prevalent than the irrational fear of people not being able to enter the property ladder.

    In the interim I’m looking to add the the PV 3

    1 Quintain Estates and developement QED:LSE – Share price <50% of net asset value

    2. Whitbread WTB:LSE – great numbers last week costa up 14.3%, Premier Inn are doing well from corporate travellers being nailed with crap hotels by senior managememt cutting costs

    3. Anglo Irish Bank ANGL:ISE – one of the most shorted stocks in Europe; unfairly it has excellent management

    Fingers crossed Lehman survives and 28,000 jobs are saved and that a line can be drawn in the sand that the last major European / G8 bank is in danger of collapse by rumour; no matter how bad a bundle of mortgages are 80% will never default yet this is what is causing the current bout of irrational psychology.

  • #801101

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    Dude your in cloud cuckoo land if you think we are econmicaly in better shape than the 80’s . As for the timeframe on your solutions to the problems your talking a decade or more.
    Another simplified comment about the national debt, did you get that soundbite from Brian cowen himself, add personal debt to the figure and we are in dire straits. Personal debt and national dent are in effect the same thing, they both have to be paid off one way or another by citizens of the state. Its complex but not terribly so but given your train of thought I dont think you ever will or want to truly understand the issues.

    These is no one panicking and very few people are being negative or overtly gloomy, if its pissing out of the heavens and I tell you its rainign cats and dogs, does that make me negative/gloomy or just a realist.
    As for panic i think people are showing great restraint considering un-employment is skyrocketing and alot of people or facing real ecnomic hardships and not imagined ones.

    Get out of that ivory tower boyo its been de-listed and is due for demolition.

    But I agree its not all gloom though ,
    at least we can sit back with a glass of Margaux and enjoy the esthetic beauty of all those wonderful buildings, schools, social, artistic, and sports complexes, roads, tunnels, bridges and transport networks we have built with the billions generated and borrowed. Thank you thank you thank you to the esteemed members of the professional institutions who drove this chariot of progress , your expertise in your noble fields of design and engineering marvel have not only created a landscape of modern masterpieces but your rounded learned sophistication and higher levels of education has also protected society and develop our civilsations finer liberal arts and humanities and ensured we didnt descend into a mire of soulless social depravity and vacous materialism. Your record of building achievement as well as your record of social advancement will stand for all time for all to see. Truly ARCHITECTS in the finest sense of the word , not only architects of the citys we live in but also architects of the society within these cities. 🙂

    no im im doing fine…..

    your in cookoo land and need to get out of the clouds boyo 🙂

    BTW I dont give two shits what Brian Cowen says, HES AN ASSHOLE. and a very dumb leader , and any anything he says is not worth listening too either..I’ll give him credit till he stop being so lazy and careless about his job and lose some weight. And everything you said is just pessismistic. So I’m not going to even analyse or respond to it.

  • #801102

    Anonymous

    @PVC King wrote:

    This thread has been annoying me for a while; BoBs latest drivel has tipped me over the edge 😡

    The building boom is as the title says over; but this will if someone sticks it in their calendar to reopen this in 3 years time I’m betting that this phase will be correctly diagnosed as a pause and not a destination in itself.

    To quote the great man “Wall St got drunk and now it has a hangover” but as Greenspan was quoted in the FT as saying the irrational nature of markets means that we move from a mindset of total euphoria to total dispear in a second for short periods whilst the truth lies somewhere in between.

    The commercial market will pick up in Q3 2009 with residential growing by Q2 2010; no Irish bank will fail and higher charges will result in sufficient profitability to sustain the next irrational bout of euphoria.

    Hopefully in the next incline planning considerations will be more prevalent than the irrational fear of people not being able to enter the property ladder.

    In the interim I’m looking to add the the PV 3

    1 Quintain Estates and developement QED:LSE – Share price <50% of net asset value

    2. Whitbread WTB:LSE – great numbers last week costa up 14.3%, Premier Inn are doing well from corporate travellers being nailed with crap hotels by senior managememt cutting costs

    3. Anglo Irish Bank ANGL:ISE – one of the most shorted stocks in Europe; unfairly it has excellent management

    Fingers crossed Lehman survives and 28,000 jobs are saved and that a line can be drawn in the sand that the last major European / G8 bank is in danger of collapse by rumour; no matter how bad a bundle of mortgages are 80% will never default yet this is what is causing the current bout of irrational psychology.

    yep keep the fingers crossed thats a very rational response to the fact Lehman posted 4 billion dollar loss for the last quarter. lets let the CEO know , that we have our legs crossed as well, in fact lets all cross fingers and stop being pessimistic and looking at the bottom of the balance sheet and the CSO figures, thats a much more rational repsonse. What did you cross when Fannie and Freddie Mac were nationalised 😉

    And wasnt Greenspan one of those who was meant to regulate Wall Street, he presided over the 80/90s digital euphoric boom/boost and then printed money like it was going out of fashion , money that financed the headache globally we are now feeling, but heh if you think him a great man thats your perogative.

    Dave123 : maybe they can quote you on the foreclosure notices and P-45s that are been sent out all over the country, we are taking your house , and your losing your job, dont be pessimistic,

    I could go one but I will defer to he superiour intellect on this site as I said Architects are steadfastedly steering societys ship , I think I put it best in my earlier remark… Your record of building achievement as well as your record of social advancement will stand for all time for all to see. Truly ARCHITECTS in the finest sense of the word , not only architects of the citys we live in but also architects of the society within these cities.

  • #801103

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    Dude your in cloud cuckoo land if you think we are econmicaly in better shape than the 80’s

    BoB, we are in far better shape economically than the 1980s – if you think we are experiencing anything like the 1980s then you have been reading the Oirish Daily Mail too much. Globally there is market turmoil but the Irish economy is much better placed to withstand it than at any time in our nations history. It wont be 100% hunky dory for a while but it there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 2010 is the place to look to

  • #801104

    Anonymous

    @rory W wrote:

    BoB, we are in far better shape economically than the 1980s – if you think we are experiencing anything like the 1980s then you have been reading the Oirish Daily Mail too much. Globally there is market turmoil but the Irish economy is much better placed to withstand it than at any time in our nations history. It wont be 100% hunky dory for a while but it there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 2010 is the place to look to

    I still stand by my comment but it was hastily written, I will qualify my remark by saying that in relative econmic and social terms as a nation we are far worse off now than in the 1980s. 2010 is optimistic, econmic recessions dont last 2 years, cycles of 10-12 are the norm.

    Getting back to the original post…anything to mention or show for the 15 years of boom,
    Im underwhlemed by the amount of posts detailing a signature building.

    15 years of the greatest boom this country will ever see and children are still being taught in pre-fabricated schools throughout the country , that sums it up, abject failure id say.
    but i see a light on the horizon, an architectural knight armed with the latest cad, BER rating and new wave of design influence from boorish Belfied
    Architecture was a joke in this country for these years, thrown a few shekels and they ran off building as much shite as their practices could turn out from one off eyesores in rural Ireland to shoe box complexes for dodgy clients, with the odd signature piece of crap tarted up as a nouveau movement. At the detriment of any sort of social developemnt not to mind maintaining a social status quo.
    As an institution the RIAI should be ashamed of itself.

  • #801105

    Anonymous

    Blaming Architects alone for the health of Irish architecture is like blaming Doctors for fat people.

    There’s a reason that architects design and developers build the crap that we have – people want them. That is the depressing truth. If people didn’t want the crappy legoland housing estates, if people said “nope, I’m not going to buy that” then you can bet your ass that we’d have a much finer architectural stock. I have dozens of friends whose greatest aspiration is to live in a box with a bit of grass outside. I have friends who have built houses on sites without even considering what the surrounding landscape has to offer. I once suggested to my sister that before finalising the locations for the windows on her extension, that she give 15 minutes to just sitting outside and checking what could be viewed from each spot. Think she did it?

    I can name architectural practices who I think have provided leadership – ODOS, Boyd Cody, Tom de Paor – who in my opinion have built really well considered infill houses. Has the entire profession provided leadership? No. But has every teacher? Every engineer? Every doctor? Of course they haven’t. Not everybody is an original thinker – that’s why they call it original thinking.

    The boom may well be over but until we take some element of personal responsibility for our choices – instead of blaming everybody else – then we’re just going to end up making the same mistakes again the next time an upturn comes along. 🙁

  • #801106

    admin
    Keymaster

    @massamann wrote:

    The boom may well be over but until we take some element of personal responsibility for our choices – instead of blaming everybody else – then we’re just going to end up making the same mistakes again the next time an upturn comes along. 🙁

    Agreed the last upturn was like an 1880s Gold Rush and it became politically impossible to stop development based on local need; once you were local somewhere that was enough; once you could sound like a local in Quinns in Drumcoundra on thursday night.

    What about planning in a sustainable way around accepted transport and municipal service provision efficiencies. Emotionally intelligent polititians such as Martin Cullen and Dick Roche trying to do Bush still folksy we’ll look after everyone type spin. When one looks back at one off housing, the now abadnoned decentralisation programme based on late late toy show principles. There are many lessons to be learned.

    When you look at what the opportunity was Boston Scientific in Galway, Intel in Leixlip, Pfizer in Cork, Goldman Sachs in Dublin you couldn’t have done a better job in providing a sound economic provision to roll out world class infrastructure, sophisticated architecture and cultural projects gallore.

    The Greenspan years delivered so much investment in positive technological advances, the internet moved from its Cern geekdom to the rest of the World, pharma never before or since delivered so many new blockbuster drugs and fund moved from a very small number of centres to new ones like Luxembourg, Panama and Dublin. It was a very exciting time which slumped for a two year period before banking and property lifted the malaise in mid 2003.

    yep keep the fingers crossed thats a very rational response to the fact Lehman posted 4 billion dollar loss for the last quarter. lets let the CEO know , that we have our legs crossed as well, in fact lets all cross fingers and stop being pessimistic and looking at the bottom of the balance sheet and the CSO figures, thats a much more rational repsonse. What did you cross when Fannie and Freddie Mac were nationalised

    18 hours after Fannie and Freddie were re-nationalised I sold all my banking stock bought the previous Thursday at a good profit; 12% on an opening bell is unsustainable; I bought them back today between 5 and 8% lower the 4% is sustainable. The effect of moving 8% of top 30 banks balance sheet assets from ailing mortgage lender junk bonds trading at 250 bps above t-bills has increased which is what the Fed has done by gauranteeing the assets of Fannie and Freddie; it has increased the value of these institutions massively at a time when their tier 1 capital positions were heading in the wrong direction. After another 40% fall this evening Lehman will be rightsized by KKR and another couple of private equity firms; my fingers remain crossed for all that work there it is tough environment to look for a job if you are in your late 30’s or older.

    The low point was 14 July 2008 – it gets better from here for finance, in a year for retail and 2 years for property

  • #801107

    Anonymous

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    I still stand by my comment but it was hastily written, I will qualify my remark by saying that in relative econmic and social terms as a nation we are far worse off now than in the 1980s. 2010 is optimistic, econmic recessions dont last 2 years, cycles of 10-12 are the norm.

    No they dont – in a normal economy (as ours is now) recessions last 12-18 months tops. When the Irish economy was a basket case there was a case for measuring recessions in decades but the economy is very different to what it was 30 years ago.

  • #801108

    Anonymous

    in relative econmic and social terms as a nation we are far worse off now than in the 1980s.

    This sums up the extent of the delusion. I’ve previously challenged this mentaller to list one measure which would support this claim and offered to provide five measures to counter each one they came up with. The challenge was not accepted.

    Obviously the fact that we can expect to live nearly 10 years longer than we did back then, that child mortality is no longer comparable to 3rd world countries, that survival rates for many diseases was a fraction of what it is, that access to education at every level is incomparably better, that unemployement is a fraction of what it was, that by pretty much every measure including the UN’s HDI or any of the OECD studies our lot has improved dramatically, that in survey after survey the Irish are now among the happiest and most content in Europe, etc.; none of these facts have any impact.

    As well as destroying Ireland, evil architects have subverted the UN, the OECD, academia in general and have deliberately fabricated survey and research results in order to attempt to discredit BoB opinions. In addition the CIA and other evil corporate and capitalist forces have been spiking our water with LSD so that the entire population of the country are under the delusion that life is actually better now than it was back in the 80s. Luckily the brave BoB stands alone against the world; the secret is to remain steadfast even when presented with FALSE FACTS – and to repeatedly tell everyone that they are simply WRONG.

    Either BoB is a complete wind-up merchant or they suffer a real disconnect with reality. The only other plausible explanation is that BoB was actually well off back in the 80s and their dog-in-a-manger attitude hates seeing the lot of the middle and working classes improve to the extent that they can afford to avail of 3rd level education, hold professional jobs, buy designer clothes for their children, take holidays, have newish cars, big TVs, etc. We’d all be better off twisting our caps to our traditional betters and it’s good for the character to get a couple of years out of each pair of shoes while spending our time crawling around in the muck digging spuds out of the ground or hacking out bits of turf to heat our mud walled cottages. Subsistence – now that’s the life.

  • #801109

    Anonymous

    This thread is off topic.

    The aim of this thread was to determine – firstly, if the building boom led to an aesthetic development of some sort within the built environment?…

    @gregf wrote:

    I don’t think we ever got that signature building or buildings to mark our cities and the era of the Celtic Tiger.

    and secondly whether or not it improved the quality of the urban fabric?…(given the circumstances)

    @notjim wrote:

    I The question is not whether things have gotten better or not, they have gotten better; the question is whether the improvement been as great as it might be, given the circumstances, the boom.

    It seems that, within this thread at least, there is an assumption that economic success leads to aesthetic development. A celtic tiger is after all expected to produce quality buildings.

    @gregf wrote:

    So after about 15 years of a building boom what have we got……anything worth a mention?

    Where has this assumption sprouted from? And if it is not an assumption (and my interpretation is incorrect) where are these buildings?

  • #801110

    Anonymous

    @notjim wrote:

    It is silly to pretend that there has not been an improvement in our situation in general and in the built environment in particular. The quality of building has been improved, some handsome buildings have been built. The question is not whether things have gotten better or not, they have gotten better; the question is whether the improvement been as great as it might be, given the circumstances, the boom.

    This site, or at least the community posting about Dublin, has two main factions; Jacobites, followers of Jane Jacobs, whose primary concern is the quality of the urban experience, and Royalist, those whose prime interest is in building as gestures, palaces as it were. I think both factions are dissatisfied and for almost the same reason, the Jacobites are unhappy because the initial intellectual energy underpinning the rebuilding of the city core, careful, modern but sympathetic infill seems to have petered out into ill-thought grasping at half-assed one-off schemes, the Royalists are unhappy because the most dramatic of these half-assed one-off schemes never seem to actually get built.

    What I found irritating about the Keiron Rose article is that he claim the wrong allies; he talked about creative types and communities, ethnic minorities and gays and the urban experience, Jacobites all and then argued for the opposite, siding against heritage and what he called nostalgia, what I would call a respect for the layered textured quality of the living city. You can’t believe that the most important thing about the city is its history and identity and its creative communities and then decide the most important thing is to throw up a few landmark buildings that could just as easily be built in Heuston Texas.

    I think tommyt nailed this. It is great that we now have a SoHo/soho area full of mid-priced Italian eateries and mid-level cultural institutions, every big city has one; but where is the new, edgy, artistic area that we lost to Temple Bar. It is great that Ranelagh is now an upend area full of elite facilities, but to get there it lost the faded bourgeois meets student village meets Baggotonia feel it had fifteen years ago and Baggot Street itself lost even earlier. Where is the new student area? The problem could be infrastructure; we need public transport to open up new areas. The only exception, I think, to our failure to gain new, distinct, organic areas are provided by the ethnic area, particularly in D1; everywhere else, we see big plans and DDDA-style community events and a belief in rejuvenation by gesture.

    I think we need to get more ambitious about infrastructure and maybe a bit more relaxed about landmarks.

    That was notjim from June (a few pages back) and it’s worth posting again.

    I think the building boom was a distraction. Just when we were taking our first steps on a learning curve, we got mesmerized by a price spiral. Of course the two were inextricably linked, the learning curve had to do with our sudden realization that you could build apartments in city centre locations and people would actually choose to live in them, (almost as if we were normal European urban dwellers) and secondly, the price spiral arose from not having any actual criteria for judging the real value of a new apartment and, by extension, the comparative value of traditional housing stock.

    Sometimes you have to pinch yourself to remember that before about 1988, there were no actual apartment buildings in Dublin, or any other Irish city. There were Corporation flats and maisonette blocks, there were endless dingy bed-sits, there were streets of decaying older houses partitioned up into makeshift flats and there were a handful of isolated posh blocks in places like Herbert Park and Burlington Road, but the normal mainstay of the city streetscape, worldwide, the urban apartment building with commercial frontage at street level, did not exist in Irish cities, twenty years ago.

    B.Z. (before Zoe) the vast tracts of city centre that had been laid waste in the 1960s and 70 to put in highways and inner tangent relief roads, remained barren ground functioning only as surface car parks, unwanted and undevelopable. Even the semenal study of Dublin published by the ‘Architectural Review’ in 1974, struggled to conjour up urban edges of more than two storeys for many of it’s sketched out visionary interventions. Ten years later, there was a study of Dublin city centre, published by the UCD School of Architecture, and I recall that it proposed ranks of detached ‘Villas’ for the wastelands on both sides of demolished High Street, simply because, in an Irish context, the creation of new urban streetscapes was almost unthinkable.

    This is where we’ve come from!

    If we see the ‘building boom’ in this context, as the era when we redescovered what cities were all about, there are huge positives to be taken from it. As with the Georgian boom, IMO, the signiture buildings will eventually come. The NGI extension was a start, the new Courts building on Infirmary Road is another example. It might be a clumsy cousin of the Tholsel, but it shows that a civic awareness, that wasn’t there when the ‘Civic Offices’ were being planned, has re-emerged. Even the NCC may yet win us over.

    As far as we’ve come in the last twenty years, we’re still no where near where we need to be before I’d want to see us leaving signitures all over the place. We haven’t even learned how to make streets properly again. It’s like we were in some horrific car crash in the 20th century and we’re only just learning to walk and talk again and some of our memory is coming back.

  • #801111

    Anonymous

    I think that the record of the last few years is that there has been success and failure in Dublin:

    1. The density dividend is starting to be realised within the city through high density infill developement.
    2.The design of a lot of infill could have been a lot better and standards for dwellings, to encourage families, need to be improved.

    My point was that this recession will be a lot shorter if we take it on the chin and don’t try and prop up the housing market. If we do try and prop it up, we’ll get a ten year recession instead of 3.

    At least it looks like the Minister for Finance is getting good advice from Alan Ahearne:

    Commitment and stamina are required for fiscal consolidation

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0906/1220629530546.html

  • #801112

    admin
    Keymaster

    @sunnydub wrote:

    My point was that this recession will be a lot shorter if we take it on the chin and don’t try and prop up the housing market. If we do try and prop it up, we’ll get a ten year recession instead of 3.

    I agree that subsidising the property market would not help but it is clear that the problem is not property specific which if it were would be a lot more worrying. Therefore gimmics such as as stamp duty moves on residential property should be resisted.

    There is however a clear rationale for the govenment to assist liquidity in the banking sector at the current time as this crisis is entirely finance related. A purchase by the NTMA of asset backed securities would be welcome once loan to value ratios were respectable say 75% maximum and be limited to properties that have environmental outperformance.

    The last thing that should be done is that unsellable 3 bed semis in the wrong locations should be bought as social / affordable housing. The recent pausde for breath should be taken as an opportunity to update development strategies and prevent a prolonged slump. When you see a republican government renationalise something you know there is no other alternative; the do nothing option is not an option unless you want to see the best construction workers back to Kilburn and Sydney

  • #801113

    Anonymous

    There is however a clear rationale for the govenment to assist liquidity in the banking sector at the current time as this crisis is entirely finance related. A purchase by the NTMA of asset backed securities would be welcome once loan to value ratios were respectable say 75% maximum and be limited to properties that have environmental outperformance.

    I disagree; the last thing the government should be doing is assisting people in any way to take on historically unprecedented levels of debt in order to buy assets which are almost guaranteed to decline in value. In fact it would be highly irresponsible. I agree that the problem is finance related; but the problem was created by increased liquidity (“inflation is fundamentally a monetary issue”) and it needs to unwind itself. The actually amount of money slashing around western economies is still absolutely enormous by historic standards. Credit creates money as sure as printing bank notes does.

    The reason a period house in Dublin costs 5 times as much now than it did 10 years ago isn’t because it offers 5 times the utility it did or that the demand (population) has increased 5 fold or that the median or mean income is 5 times what it was. The reason is simple: there has been an unprecedented increase in the amount of money (created by credit) globally in the last 5 or 10 years. The reason the prices of everything haven’t risen similarly is because of the Chinese, other emerging economies and commodity producers were happy to take all the excess cash and effectively bury it in a hole in the ground (aka “building foreign reserves”) and in return send super tankers full of cheap consumer goods and oil back to us. That is not sustainable.

    The big problem with bubbles in particular assets is that they tend to cause people to divert their attentions from productive economic activity into attempting to participate in the party; it actually disincentivises working. I simply cannot see why anyone thinks it is normal to be able to sit on your arse watching TV in an “average house” in Ireland and become 20 or 30k wealthier every year.

    Despite the above, I’m reasonably optimistic about our economic future generally. However I believe we have a long way down to go in terms of property prices. Property index derivatives in the UK are currently pricing a 40% drop over the next 3 years. There’s probably an element of backwardation in these prices but I’d always trust the markets more than the opinion of analysts. We need to take it on the chin; property is a cost for most economic activities (perhaps not a very popular opinion on an architecture site) and for most individuals. The government should simply do nothing and let the prices correct themselves; this will be painful for a small minority but beneficial overall.

  • #801114

    admin
    Keymaster

    @jimg wrote:

    IProperty index derivatives in the UK are currently pricing a 40% drop over the next 3 years.

    The property derivative thing was only set up at the end of 2007 through IPD and JLL capital markets; it was believe it or not set up so that commercial property funds that had difficulties sourcing product over the previous 3-4 years wouldn’t miss out on the boom and could bet on further yield compression without the problem of having to find a building with blue chip tenants.

    The same people are now telling us that prices that have already fallen close to 20% will fall another 40%; I don’t believe it and maybe I am sitting on that proverbial deck chair as I am exposed to some pretty risky plays working in property and holding bank stock.

    There is no question that banks feared loss of market share to rivals and lent on property deals which were predicated on future growth levels which have now moved in the wrong direction. With the contraction in supply that is being witnessed prices cannot continue to fall once there is a regular supply of credit in the market. Banks quite simply having made mistakes in past years aimwed at maximising shareholder value are now in a position where it is difficult for them to sell any mortgages because the asset backed securities sector is closed; they in effect unable to perform their societal function for the first time in 30 plus years.

    The problem here is that as the economy slows deposits will fall back and without access to international wholesale markets banks will have an ever dwindling supply to lend to anyone other than key commercial clients. By selecting very strict criteria the NTMA can secure very high quality loans at what are in the medium term very attractive prices; when the market recovers the asset class will become too expensive and they will be outbid at which time astability has clearly returned they could either hold the securities as high quality assets or liquidate the position moving the money back into index based equity or back to government paper. Critically in the short term it puts a safety net in place to ensure that the construction sector can remain open for business at say 40 – 50,000 units a year and not collapse to the 20,000 its heading for next year.

  • #801115

    Anonymous

    @PVC King wrote:

    18 hours after Fannie and Freddie were re-nationalised I sold all my banking stock bought the previous Thursday at a good profit; 12% on an opening bell is unsustainable; I bought them back today between 5 and 8% lower the 4% is sustainable. The effect of moving 8% of top 30 banks balance sheet assets from ailing mortgage lender junk bonds trading at 250 bps above t-bills has increased which is what the Fed has done by gauranteeing the assets of Fannie and Freddie; it has increased the value of these institutions massively at a time when their tier 1 capital positions were heading in the wrong direction. After another 40% fall this evening Lehman will be rightsized by KKR and another couple of private equity firms; my fingers remain crossed for all that work there it is tough environment to look for a job if you are in your late 30’s or older.

    The low point was 14 July 2008 – it gets better from here for finance, in a year for retail and 2 years for property

    Fingers crossed Lehman survives and 28,000 jobs are saved and that a line can be drawn in the sand that the last major European / G8 bank is in danger of collapse by rumour; no matter how bad a bundle of mortgages are 80% will never default yet this is what is causing the current bout of irrational psychology.

    :D:D:D
    If your designing buildings as badly as your calling the bottom for financial stocks then that explains a few clangers i see on the urban Irish landscape .
    Maybe you didnt see the market meltdown yesterday . bye bye Lehman… S&P hits 52 week low and falling

    It looks like all that rational finger crossing and upbeat optimism of yours and others was not able to save Lehman from that irrational and pessimistic Q3 $4Billion loss i was talking about.

    Im not surprised, most architects are programmed to be so far removed from clients requirements and actual societys needs that they would also be removed from basic financial instruments. that ivory tower sure is crowded ..

    back to the thread topic
    Theres was no expectation that alot of money would produce alot of quality buildings. There was an expectation that alot of money would produce alot of buildings and thereby give the best oppurtunity in decades for some signature creations, It hasnt happened, buidlings are badly designed, some badly built, unfitting to their purpose and in locations un-serviced by integrated transport systems.

    The failings of the banking industry are mirrored in the failings of the architectural associations, what we got in effect was a bunch of sub-prime and credit default swap architecture, The buidlings constructed during the Celtic tiger boom were so highly leveraged in starchitect archi-speak bullshit and the chase for the next contract/shekels few if any dared burst the illususory bubble that somehow these buildings were even half decent.

  • #801116

    Anonymous

    As long as your builder mates don’t get their way and get tax payers to prop them up we shouldn’t get more mediocrity and there’ll be pause to consider things…and time to get back to fair value. I 100% agree with Jimg above, sharp analysis.

    Great analysis from Alan Aherne in today’s Irish Times, he’s the man advising the Minister for Finance

    Courage to say No to vested interests is crucial for economy

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0916/1221430255118.html

    ALAN AHEARNE
    ANALYSIS : What did I tell yesterday’s Fianna Fáil meeting? If you weren’t there, read on. . .

    HOW PAINFUL will the economic downturn be and long will it last? The simple and honest answer is that the slump will be severe and will probably last longer than most people think. The consensus among economic forecasters is for a moderate decline in real GDP this year, followed by a pick-up to low positive growth in 2009. A robust recovery, with growth of roughly 4 per cent, is pencilled in for 2010.

    This projected path for economic activity looks implausible. Weak incoming data, a deteriorating outlook for growth abroad and the scale of adjustment in the housing market that has still to take place point to significant contractions in GDP both this year and next. The economy may stabilise in 2010 as the drag from new homebuilding fades, but we will probably have to wait until 2011 for a rebound to strong growth.

    If the government take the weak option I’ll go mad 😡

  • #801117

    Anonymous

    BoB,

    About three months ago you paused the criticism of everybody else to tell us the kind of buildings that you DID like. This was what we got at the time:

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    Id like to see Irish architects lead instead of follow, we do it in other fields, industrys and creative arts , I dont know why they cant do it in this field.

    I thought the maternity wing in the CUH was okay but jaysus if you spent anytime there youd know its a complete joke

    Spending the next few months travelling in the US , France and Benelux .

    So now that you are back, can you name something? Anything? I can’t picture where you’re coming from if all I have to go on is “I’d like to see Irish architects lead instead of follow”. I’m all for debate, but that involves more than just pointing out what we don’t like. Anybody can do that. Can we all please take it to the next level?

  • #801118

    Anonymous

    @massamann wrote:

    BoB,
    About three months ago you paused the criticism of everybody else to tell us the kind of buildings that you DID like. This was what we got at the time:
    So now that you are back, can you name something? Anything? I can’t picture where you’re coming from if all I have to go on is “I’d like to see Irish architects lead instead of follow”. I’m all for debate, but that involves more than just pointing out what we don’t like. Anybody can do that. Can we all please take it to the next level?

    Have you ever actually worked in any of these retarded overpriced building we have created recently in Ireland, have you ever actually lived or stayed a few nights in the shit hole apartments and dreaded dreary f**kwit estates , have you ever thought what the net social reprecussion down the line of a massive cost overrun in a public private building contract is I could go on…

    If you need to still ask that question your never going to get the answer. Id recommend you take a flight, get a job, go live and work in 3 or 4 different countries, then travel around those countries and its neighbours doing business or sighseeing, bring your family and kids, look for value and comfort places of interest places of social gathering and activities, places of entertainment, education and social services for them and then you come back here in a few years and you tell me if you would even entertain such a ridiculous question from someone who is suppossed to be in the know.
    I had way too much fun getting out of this shithole and its dreary manmade landscape to even contemplate getting into that kind of a debate. Someone build a decent building here thats has merit and stands on its own two feet in all aspects, cost, function, aesthetic, individuality and we can take it to the next level . I have spoken where I saw fit in regard to what and how I saw things presented on this forum.

    Times have changed, history has moved in its over , it was a failure , the RIAI and architects in general made alot of money whilst simultaneously failing society as a whole . Shut the door, turn out the lights, switch off the printer there are other more pressing matters at hand.
    I couldnt be arsed arguing anymore I will repeat my heartfelt believe…..
    What we got in effect was a bunch of sub-prime and credit default swap architecture, The buidlings constructed during the Celtic tiger boom were so highly leveraged in starchitect archi-speak bullshit and the chase for the next contract/shekels few if any dared burst the illususory bubble that somehow these buildings were even half decent.

    You want an example , heres one … the Millau viaduct was a joy to drive over. 394 million euro joy. Now you and the rest of your ilk here who are still delusional and need some clarification as to what exatcly was lacking in irish architecture and the building boom can go off and play in your 4 billion euro Metro line sandbox.
    Whats that 4billion euro in real terms, I did the sums last night, it represents ten times the amount per GDP per head of pop that the UK is spending on the olympics. Go tell the UK they are hosting 10 Olympics in a row , what are we getting for that , 1 f**ing metro line.

  • #801119

    Anonymous

    Personally one of the things that travelling impressed upon me the most was the fact that I’m extraordinarily lucky to have grown up in a beautiful country, at a time of unprecedented prosperity, with unquestioned access to an excellent education, decent health care (I know it could be a LOT better – but it still beats many Western countries), a reasonably stable economy (up til now!!!), excellent opportunities and filled with a friendly, helpful and happy people.

    As for the quality of what we’ve built in the last fifteen to twenty years… So many excellent buildings have been built in the last few years. The general awareness of design has increased steadily and with the rise in visibilty of the sustainability agenda, people are beginning to expect a certain quality of accommodation.

    You only need to look at the raft of top quality government and local government architecture produced since the heyday of the OPW in the early 1990’s. The private sector has really lagged behind as has our planning but perhaps the current hiccup in the economy will allow us to reflect and develop a more mature and considered approach.

    Interesting article from the times about our developing maturity in design…

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/06/features/design.php

  • #801120

    Anonymous

    Jesus BoB,

    After all that, you go and name a road? And even worse a motorway designed by a starchitect!

    I have to admit, I expected more.

  • #801121

    admin
    Keymaster

    @bostonorberlin wrote:

    :D:D:D
    If your designing buildings as badly as your calling the bottom for financial stocks then that explains a few clangers i see on the urban Irish landscape .
    Maybe you didnt see the market meltdown yesterday . bye bye Lehman… S&P hits 52 week low and falling

    I’ve never designed a building in my life but I do use architects who I invest in to deliver superior returns. The enjoyment you are getting from 28,000 losing their jobs is unbelievable; Fuld lied to the New York Fed about the scale of the crisis and took down a lot of honest hard working people with him. People like him are luckily not around very often and the scale of his egotistical failure to do a deal 2 weeks ago when there was still time is shocking and tragic. Luckily for me I was able to leverage a little of the volalility available today are kept my loses to less than 10% since last Friday.

    I will be back in the market tomorrow acquiring bank shares because luckily those that profit from crisis like these book their profits and realise that to rape us again we need to make at least some of our money back.

    To think if you played your hunch you could have bought Lemen puts for $2.50 when the shares were at $12; thankfully you are too bitter to pay a broker and prefer to whine on about buildings, infrastructure and anything else that comes into your view.

    Bank of Ireland at €4? I’ll have a few thousand please

  • #801122

    Anonymous

    I seem to sense snouts, troughs and spivvery in the last post; what a sad pass we’ve come to that the stability of bankers has been replaced by the greed of wankers who just look to ‘minimise their losses’. Clearly, integrity is for little people.

  • #801123

    Anonymous

    So I was going home on the bus today , it was a beautiful day (as Bono would say or sing, that same multi millionaire chap, appealer to common folk, for starving children in distress and dire need ) and passing on up the quays on a 79 (by Bono’s hotel too), I saw all the broken people of Irish society, ie the drugs addicts, winos etc…who took advantage of the fine day and decided to take a stroll too. There was a plethora of such folk in the sunshine, amongst the tourists who had come to see the sights of the capital of Ireland. One sight that would have been an exclusive for their holiday snaps and memories was of a young woman pissing in the doorway of Fitsimmons Bar/Hotel in broad daylight whilst her ‘boyfriend’ stood looking on. Any sign of a garda …….na not one to behold! What a fucking kip! I wouldn’t mind but I had been in O’Donoghue’s pub where one chap had just bought only a packet of cheap cigarettes using his credit card ….. ‘roish’. What a gap in Irish society! No better than anywhere else, I suppose. But Irish folk and Irish society can be full of shit however!

    “For what died the sons of Róisin?”

    Erin go bragh!

  • #801124

    admin
    Keymaster

    The underbelly of any society is unattractive but when the cops don’t give a damn it really does make the problem a lot worse; on a trip to Vilnuis a couple of years back it really struck me just how few of socienties unfortunates existed and this in a country where gdp is a fraction with that of Dublin’s. The snooker tables in Donnybrook really do need to be removed and the beat walked again to clean up the act of people who behave in an unacceptable way just because they can get away with it.

    Johnglas

    I was disapointed by your comments; the subject under discussion is that the boom is over and that a mega recession is going to consume the entire economy; yet you concentrated on the fact that I had by increasing my holding of actual shares to prop up existing positions at intra day lows been equated with someone selling shares I didn’t own and try to exacerbate the position of companies already under pressure.

    This is something I would never do but when shares hit a particularly low point intra day I often jump in with a belief that prices will rise and that the excess shares can be used to at worst cut losses or at best deliver profit. The ban on short selling introduced this week is welcome and make no mistake if things kept going at the rate they were going in markets this week for another 24 hours the system would have crashed and unemployment would have been 30% in the OECD within 24 months.

    To express relief that one has not been wiped out in the face of the worst market conditions in 70 years does not make one a wanker but simply a typical retail investor who has been caught in a once in century level of volatility and seen all there existing strategies redendered ineffective. Give me a choice between the levels of volatility seen since the start of the year or a stable market delivering 6% growth p.a. and I would chose the quiet model everytime as there are always sectors that have an advantage over others and outperform slightly in the medium term; examples would be renewable energy over automotive.

    Thankfully Friday delivered and the BoI shares I bought at €3.85 and €3.70 early doors on Thursday finished the week at €5.25 which indicates that despite a €30bn exposure to property the market is confident that the economy although facing changes will come through this phase with its main banks remaining profitable; which lets face it this is not a phase we want to see for a very long time again.

  • #801125

    Anonymous

    PVC King: thanks for the reply, my last intention is to personalise anything here and you’ve done me the courtesy of a considered response. I take your point; it’s not a world I’m part of (although I’m not so much of a hypocrite to say that I have not benefitted from rising property values – mainly to get me a house I want to live in – nor that I have not allowed others to manage my investments), but… There is great unease out there and we need to revert to a more regulated (and less ‘controlled’) society, particularly in money terms, where money and property are not so much commodities as means to an end and the fatcats are made to act responsibly and pay their dues like the rest of us. Here endeth the lesson…

  • #801126

    admin
    Keymaster

    @johnglas wrote:

    There is great unease out there and we need to revert to a more regulated (and less ‘controlled’) society, particularly in money terms, where money and property are not so much commodities as means to an end and the fatcats are made to act responsibly and pay their dues like the rest of us. Here endeth the lesson…

    For sure; the large Wall St investment banks are down to 2 survivors throw in UBS and there are probably only 3 left. The many large commercial banks that tried to copy them will retreat into less risky business models that are more akin to utilities than casinos. It was some week all the same and I for one hope we never see anything like it again!!

    The real irony of this week is that the FSA may take some of the 20 Floors Lehman Bros had at 20 Bank St; if only they knew what was going on in the same building but one thing is clear 4 equally sized floors was from enough space to regulate the volumes of instruments out there. 😮

  • #801127

    Anonymous

    A planner talking serious sense

    Tighter lending to free up values for fall

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2008/0924/1222105163954.html

    After last week’s upheavals in the financial markets, banking and its approach to property lending will never be the same again and values will adjust to this reality, writes Bill Nolan

  • #801128

    Anonymous

    Came across this little video of some imagery of North American cities.. ie New York, Chicago etc…set to a piece of music by Ultravox.
    The piece is about 30 years old, but look at all the trappings of contemporary and modern living -appartments, mono-rails, shopping malls, offices etc… Stuff we in Ireland finally somewhat attained at the end of the 20th century!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP0Psd_lu5w

    So here’s to the next boom!

    Sláinte!

  • #801129

    admin
    Keymaster

    @gregf wrote:

    Came across this little video of some imagery of North American cities.. ie New York, Chicago etc…set to a piece of music by Ultravox.
    The piece is about 30 years old, but look at all the trappings of contemporary and modern living -appartments, mono-rails, shopping malls, offices etc… Stuff we in Ireland finally somewhat attained at the end of the 20th century!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP0Psd_lu5w

    So here’s to the next boom!

    Sláinte!

    Really enjoyed that piece although with the recent fashion swing back to 1983/4 in hair and fashion I couldn’t figure out if it is actually historic or contemporary!

    Here is to the next boom which one hopes is not too far away but one feels may be just a little less construction led than the end of the last one.

    I really hope that 22 years after the first one that a new and equally successful PNR can be agreed as right now Ireland along with possibly Italy is showing real immaturity in facing up that to the sad new reality that everyone is going to have to take a lot of pain to get prices back to real levels and the economy back onto a sustainable path.

    €6 for a pint or a sandwich in D2 or contemporary civil service wages structures or really pointless agencies have no place at this point of the cycle and must be removed like the malignant tumours that they are. The sooner these issues are corrected the sooner Foreign Direct Investors will start to take what is a fantastic young educated and creative population for their true value and not the bloated pricing structure that they encounter in our major towns and cities.

    If these issues aren’t corrected the recession in Ireland whilst abating accross the wider OECD will last longer than Japan’s in the 1990’s and worse still there is no indigenous manaufacturing sector to repatriate foreign profits from excluding possibly 10 companies.

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