MacLeinin
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Is the structure at the very back under the round window the Tabernacle? If so, can I ask, what is the point?
From the position of the chairs/pews (I can’t quite make out which they are supposed to be) no one in the congregation can see the Tabernacle from the orientation of the seats. But then again that may be just what was wanted.!!!!!
The thing that I am presuming is the ambo I have to say reminds me of an urinal and as for the ‘thing’ at the opposite end which again I have to presume is supposed to be an altar looks like something my children would produce with playdough (although lacking the colour).
In truth there is nothing in this that I, as a Catholic, can identify with. If I happened upon this unawares there is nothing here to tell me that this is the House of God and that He resides here. It is cold and soulless and my heart goes out to the poor unfortunates who have no choice but to attend Mass in this place.
It would take St. Paul himself or the Cure d’Ars to uplift the faithful in these surroundings. Unfortunately I do not think we have their like in Ireland today.Sirius wrote:Praxiteles, you have clarified a number of issues raised in the Cobh appeal:In posting #1359 you recommended reading Martin Mosebach’]
Sirius, you astound me. Following your comments:1.The FOSCC case stated that in many of the churches in Europe re-ordering had not been implimented. If you must know Ireland is following in the footsteps of Americe and to some extent England, ie the English speaking world in this.
2. Do you really want to bring this up??? Cardinal Arinze approved nothing. Take a look at the book produced by FOSCC and you will see that Bishop Magee wrote to Cardinal Arinze in OCT. 2003 asking for a ‘word of encouragement’ to the many people who had worked on the project. This in fact he received from Cardinal Arinze – a word of encouragement for the workers on the project and not an ‘approval of the plans’ as was suggested in his letter read out at all Masses in July 2005.
Incidently since that time I have learned that nobody in the hierachy in Cloyne Diocese actually saw the letter from Cardinal Arinze and all believed that it was an approval when in fact it was nothing of the kind.3. Read again and again the FOSCC position. They have never questioned the Bishop’s authority when it comes to true and authentic Church teaching. The re-ordering of the Cobh Catheral never came into that sphere. FOSCC did ask the pasishioners what they felt in the matter as otherwise they would have been sidelined as cranks – a ploy which is still being tried. In the end they did not gather large numbers of people to support their view at the Oral Hearing in Midleton, they invited experts on Liturgy and an advocate from the Roman Rota to present their case.
On a final point. It was Bishop John who, first day, came to the people with this project. You cannot now blame them if they considered that an invitation to express their opinion. The thing is that the opinion of the people did not conform to what was already planned and therefore they have been sidelined ever since. You connot blame FOSCC either for the initial position or the subsequent reaction.
On a personal note I have to say that recently a number of contributors have come on to this site and all they seemed interested in is firing darts at FOSCC. Can you not talk to the point. I have to say that you are so way off base that I wonder if you are, maybe, a member of the Trustees or the HCAC.
If not, please talk to the point.@Chuck E R Law wrote:
A most impressive debut by Rhuburanus, with him iconography becomes pornography.
Constructive and gentlemanly as ever Chuck !!!!!!!!!!!!!
The problem, of course, is not the liturgy, but those who are presiding at the liturgy. If Cobh is anything to go by they haven’t a clue. The level of disobedience to the Magisterium is growing weekly. Maybe they think that no one will notice is they can move the ‘furniture’ about.
“It looks like a cat walk” – a spontaneous reaction from someone who was looking over my shoulder at the interior of Drumaroad.
To all you architects out there, please explain how this can possibly be an improvement on what went before – given that this is a church. Does one have to be a theologian or modern liturgist to ‘read’ this conformation? Please explain.
Brianq – over to you.@Fearg wrote:
Brian,
I’d be interested to know what was the thinking behind such a radical reorganisation in Drumaroad? (I’m assuming the altar was originally located at the gable end). For example, Steelstown church in Derry is very much post Vatican II, but still hints at the division into Nave and Sanctuary, respecting tradition in a modern context possibly..[ATTACH]2868[/ATTACH]
Thanks,
Fearg.Did the architect forget to include walls?
@brianq wrote:
mac,
I have to take issue with your sweeping generalisation here. I readily accept yours and anyone else’s right to disagree with my views. I readily accept when I am wrong on a factual basis and will thoughtfully consider contrary views on those issues about which contrary views can be legitimately held e.g. aesthetics etc. The authority of true Catholic teaching is accepted fully on my part. I don’t know what you mean by a liberal and therefore couldn’t say if I am one or not. I suspect it is irrelevant anyway.
BQ
Dear Brianq,
I do not question you acceptance of Church teaching. I question the interpretation you have been given. You are free to explore these issues and expand your knowledge. Unlike many you appear to be willing to take that course. I am leagues behind you. I need every latin phrase translated for me.
What I do not understand about the above quote is what you mean by I readily accept when I am wrong on a factual basis and will thoughtfully consider contrary views on those issues about which contrary views can be legitimately held e.g. aesthetics etc. .Expand please.
@brianq wrote:
Mac,
Was there a third reordering? When was it?
BQ
The first was by Ashlin c. 1904, second the infamous McCormack (dinosaur tooth) job and the third is yours, I believe.
I have been thinking about Fr. Paddy Jones and I wonder if it is he who is leading the Bishops along the road of liturgical nonesense, or if he their willing donkey?
@Praxiteles wrote:
Just take a look at this mouthful of guff:
Once again Fr. Jones neglects to declare his involvement in the writing of the infamous Guidelines for Places of Worship and his involvement in the APB oral hearing into the planning decision re. Cobh Cathedral.
He is a past master of the arbitrary uncorroberated statement such as – “The sanctuary designed in the 19th century is certainly inadequate”.
Says who?
We know Paddy, and his pals in the Maynooth liturgical clique, think so, but when are they going to realise that the vast majority of the worshippers they so glibly refer to, do not.@Gianlorenzo wrote:
Looking at the floor in Armagh Cathedral I can’t help thinking that all those miles of barley twist and acres of celtic squiggle can’t be too easy on anyone with a delicate constitiution – it’s all too fussy for a liturgical setting. Just take a look at the black and white tiles on the floor of Bordeaux Cathedral and one is struck immediately by the dignity of its restraint.
If something fancy was wanted in Armagh a mosaic should have been put in.
All those tiles, no matter how expensive, just can’t lift the mind from thinking of an elegant water closet in an upmarket hotel.G. Don’t mind the floor. Don’t you think that the present incumbant in Armagh might be ‘hiding’? This is hardly surprising as the poor congregation in Armagh have gone through three seperate re-orderings – all I am sure in the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’. At this stage they must be driven to taking pot shots at their ‘Shepherd’ – just as well he is so well out of range!!!!:rolleyes:
@Praxiteles wrote:
Here is a little something that Brian Quinn might be interested in.
It outlines the principles of the liturgical reform of the Second Vatican Council by someone who was there at all its sessions and who exercised a very serious influence on the proceedings of the Council since he was a member of its doctrinal commission.
Praxiteles, my dear lady, don’t waste your time. Brian is, unfortunately, completely brainwashed by the modernist litugical propaganda and will, like all the rest, ignore anything that might impinge on their given ‘orthodoxy’ even if it originates with our current Holy Father.
Jones et al in Maynooth and everything they touch sing from the same outdated hymn sheet. They have staked their whole careers and to recognise any other view now would negate their entire lives. True Catholic teaching holds no authority for them. The pity is that they seem like nice people but like all liberals they are totally illeberal in their attitudes to anyone who disagrees with them.:(@Praxiteles wrote:
The following link gives an interesting account of the operations of the so called liturgical consultants in the U.S.A.
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=20592That sounds all too familiar. The line taken by the various church officials and architects and so called ‘liturgical consultants’ is exactly what was used by the church representatives, Prof. Cathal O’Neill and planning consultant Brian McCutcheon in Cobh – they were not destroying the architectural heritage of St. Colmans they were bringing it back to its original design and ‘fixing’ Pugin obvious errors. Thankfully An Bord Pleanala didn’t swallow this mendacious line.
I wonder has there ever been a time before this when the ‘Shepherds’ and their firends have railroaded wholesale over their flock in such heartless fashion. How can they talk about ‘community’ when they are prepared to ignore completely the heartfelt wishes of their congregations.TEXT OF BISHOP’S Letter
My Dear People, July 25th 2006
I write to you today concerning our much admired Diocesan Cathedral – St Colman’s in Cobh. The Diocese had proposed changes to St. Colman’s which involved replacing the present temporary plywood altar with a permanent altar, something worthy of the Cathedral, as well as extending the sanctuary so that the altar would be more visible to the congregation and so make it easier for people to experience full, active and conscious participation in the Mass. As you may be aware, An Bord Pleanala recently has refused planning permission for the proposed changes.
Whilst the An Bord Pleanala decision is of particular importance for our Diocese, the Irish Bishops, as a group, have also expressed their concern. The decision could have serious implications for all places of worship in the State that are also protected structures. It must be viewed in the context of the Constitutional right of every religious denomination “to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable or immovable†which is contained in Article 44.2.5 of Bunreacht Na hÉireann.
In its decision, An Bord Pleanala accepted that changes in the sanctuary arose from liturgical requirements, but considered that this did not bind it to accept the particular design proposed. An Bord Pleanala believed that the changes proposed “would constitute an excessive intervention in the protected structureâ€, but they did not give any guidelines as to what design would be acceptable.
As a result of An Bord Pleanala’s decision, the situation concerning the temporary plywood altar still remains unresolved and needs to be addressed. The Diocese will initiate discussions with the planning authorities in an attempt to find a solution, which would be acceptable from both the liturgical and heritage points of view. I will keep you fully informed of the outcome of these discussions.
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you once again for your outstanding financial and moral support, which has enabled the undertaking of excellent work to conserve and preserve the fabric of the Cathedral building. Through your generosity €4,000,000 (four million euro) has already been spent on restoring the Cathedral. The excellence of the workmanship has brought praise from many quarters, including a European Architectural Heritage Award. Without your generous assistance this would not have been possible.
I appreciate that some members of the faithful may find it difficult to understand why it is necessary to continue with the process for the internal re-ordering of St. Colman’s. I do so because of my concern, as your Bishop, that the present sanctuary layout of our beautiful and historic Cathedral does not satisfactorily meet the current liturgical requirements for a Diocesan Cathedral.
With every good wish and blessing,
+John Magee, Bishop of Cloyne
@Chuck E R Law wrote:
I had the impression that The Three Masons (Praxiteles, Sangallo and Gianlorenzo) had modelled themselves on The Three Musketeers at the Siege of La Rochelle, i.e. relying on extravagant (s)wordplay to escape from impossible situations.
Chuck etc.
What is your problem? Are one of the ‘Liberals’ of our time who is intollerant of anyone who does not see the world as you do?
You have been fairly regular recently, but you have resticted yourself to personal attack (as above) rather than acutally stating your position. Any chance that you might enlighten us?:)@Sirius wrote:
For the education of Gianlorenzo:
The following works for the reordering of the Church of St. Mary and the Sacred Heart in Monkstown were approved by the Conservation Officer:
The placement of the pulpit into the chancel area,
The erection of a platform to bring the altar table out into the crossing
The rearrangement and/or permanent removal of some pews
The removal of two confessional boxes
The relocation of the baptismal font
The relocation of part of the original reredos back from the existing altar table
The erection of tapestries
The blocking up of an existing door opeThe following works were not approved and were excluded by planning condition:
The removal of the existing altar and statue in the Lady ChapelThere was no submission from An Taisce
There were no submissions from the general public
There was no request for further information
The decision to permit was made within 8 weeks of the submission of the applicationHere endeth the lesson
Been away for awhile.
Sirius – do you imagine that these are original proposals? They are now in the domain of the mundane.
Do not be surprised that the parishioners in Monkstown are not objecting. They have been lied to, and have in their innocence accepted the word of their priest and the so-called architectural and liturgical experts.
What is happening in Monkstown is a scandal and in years to come people ( including architects) will ask ” How was this allowed to happen”?@Chuck E R Law wrote:
I object to a liturgical campaign against one particular bishop being presented as a general concern about architectural heritage.
Some of my best friends are masons.
Chuck, the general concern here and in Cobh is about our architectural heritage and in this case ecclesiatical architectural heritage. It was the applicants, ie Trustees of St. Colman’s , who brought the liturgical question into play by insisting in their application that these intrusive changes were ‘liturgically required’. This was not something that could be ignored. This is not and never was about ‘one particular bishop’. It just so happens that Cobh was the first of the Irish Cathedrals to fall under the 2000 Planning Act. and thank God for that. If you look back on this tread you will see the wholesale destruction which has occurred in our ecclesiatical architectural heritage and mostly justified by the same ‘pseudo liturgy’.
The people in Cobh were fortunate that they were able to get authentic liturgical and canonical advice in addition to access to excellent architectural and conservation assistance.@Chuck E R Law wrote:
Who are these guys?
Praxiteles
Gianlorenzo (Bernini)
(Francesco or Giuliano da) SangalloMasons?
Dear Chuck,
Are you not aware that Masonry is frowned upon by the Catholic Church and whatever you problem might be with Praxiteles, Gianlorenzo and Sangallo, you can hardley accuse them of antipathy to Catholicism. On the other hand you come and go firing darts, but I still do not know what you object to in this discussion. Can you leave off posturing for a while and just tell us?
Oswald, just in case you don’t have a copy of King Lear to hand, here is a link.
http://larryavisbrown.homestead.com/files/Lear/lear_home.htm
