‘Dutch Billys’

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  • #799184

    Anonymous

    There is a house with a dutch style gable on talbot street, its part of a furniture shop, i don’t know anything else about it.

    #799186

    Anonymous

    10 Mill street is part of an application from Osprey Property(Eircom) to turn their large holding on Mill Street into Apartments. Part of the application mentions removing the existing flat roof from Nr. 10 and putting a slate roof back on it. There was a conservation report conducted by the Dublin Civic Trust – who no longer exist I think – but the website remains. .

    I’m surpised to see 10 Mill Street in Red brick. I thought Red Brick only got popular in Victorian times.

    Also on the way up to see it I came accross this other Meteor sponsored Dutch Billy.

    However I don’t believe the everybody in Dublin in 1650/1700 lived in houses as grand as these. Is there a record of the vernaclular house for that period?

    #799187

    Anonymous

    The Dublin Civic Trust http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/ remains extremely active, even if their News & Events page hasn’t been updated for a long time.

    #799188

    Anonymous

    Our dwindling stock of gabled houses is a topic that has come up on various threads, ‘Dublin Vistas’, ‘Thomas St./James’s St.’ etc., but I think, as an endangered species, this forgotten remnant of our built heritage deserves a thread of it’s own.

    The explosion in the construction of curvilinear gabled houses throughout Dublin, and across most of the other urban centres of Ireland, in the last decades of the 17th century, and which continued to be the dominant urban style in residential architecture into the 1740s, deserves a closer look.

    The best published references that I know of are: the ‘Dutch Billys’ article by Peter walsh in the 1973 ‘Liberties of Dublin’ ed. Elgy Gillespie, and pgs. 29 -61 of McCullough’s ‘Dublin, an Urban History’. Maurice Craig ‘Dublin 1660 – 1860‘ just about acknowledges the presence of gabled houses but his passion was for the classical Georgian city.

    So completely have the gabled streets of Dublin been lost, or masked, that the tendency has been to regard the dimly remembered curvilinear gabled houses as some kind of neanderthal off-shoot in the evolutionary process that shortly afterwards delivered the presumed perfection of ‘Georgian’ Dublin. Part of this may have been down to the agressive marketing of Luke Gardiner and his circle, who, in a very short space of time, managed to persuade upwardly mobile Dubliners that, not only were they living in the wrong part of town, but they were also living in the wrong design of house.

    One of the ironies of the ‘Dutch Billy’ is that, by about 1730, the style was so ubiquitous and so well developed, that it must have constituted something very close to a national architectural style. Dispite having huge loyalist Williamite conatations, curvilinear gabled houses appear to be an Irish phenomenon, were fasionable in Dublin in the years before there was any consciousness of Dutch Billy himself, and most amazingly, the ‘Dutch Billy’ does not seem to exist in England at all. You can scan the backgrounds of all the Hogarth prints and Canneletto paintings of London you like, there are no Dutch gabled houses there!

    McCullough points to the obvious trading links with Europe, and Holland in particular, as the likely source of the
    initial outbreak, and Dutch architects were evident on the ground in Dublin in the period, but that can only be part of the story. On very few occassions, before or since, have Dublin and London taken such divergent routes.

    The fact that the pivotal battle of the era took place in Ireland, and the fact that it ushered in an unprecedented period of stability, prosperity and growth, may go towards explaining the extraordinary degree to which Loyalist Ireland took William of Orange to their hearts, perhaps up to and including the desire to live in houses that honoured his memory in bricks and mortar. In England, where William was probably more regarded as just another king, and where Holland was more directly perceived as a fierce trading rival, no particular desire may have emerged to go Dutch in house design.

    Whatever about the origins of the style, what developed here was a full blown architectural movement with a complex language and a real urban vitality that none of Luke Gardiner’s sober ‘Georgian’ street would ever equal, in my opinion. To compare a complex ‘Dutch Billy’ corner with the half hearted efforts of the Georgians is to compare a piece of sculpture with a photocopy. The development of the close twin or ‘Siamese’ gabled house, as a response to the common urban phenominon of the wedge shaped corner site, may even have been a Dublin invention.

    The loss that Dublin suffered in going over to the Luke Gardiner led English Palladian model, and turning it’s back on it’s indigenous urban tradition, is not just about the near irradication of the whole record of an architectural style, it’s also about the substitution of a slightly superficial, segregated and imported model, for a truely urban, mixed use and socially integrated model.

    I don’t want to keep dumping on Luke Gardiner, given that he has attained such iconic status as the developer that all other developers are supposed to look up to, but his legacy is decidedly mixed at best. If we use the anology of red squirrels and grey squirrels. Imagine Dublin as a little wooded glade alive with happy little native red squirrels buzzing about in sylvan harmony. Then a man walks into the clearing with a sack of foreign ravenous grey squirrels and proceeds to dump them out. I’m just suggesting that, in that analogy, that man is Luke Gardiner, and he is an ugly man, and he smells.

    I’ll stick up as many pictures as I can over the next while to try and illustrate the points I’ve made here, but the primary concern has to be to safeguard the few houses that remain, albeit in their altered Georgian form.

    This stretch of James’s Street opposite the Fountain contains at least two originally gabled houses, the pink house was a simple small curvilinear gabled house and it’s neighbour to the right, dispite it’s minute size, was a twin gabled house, which I think illustrates the real consciousness of the urban rhythm that the sequence of gables were capable of creating.

    No. 10 Mill Street now and as illustrated in the 19th century below.

    #799189

    Anonymous

    aren’t we forgetting the pastiche apartments around back lane/cornmarket and the single building at 18 lwr leeson st that seems a bit bizarre-I have never ascertained if it is meant to be a replica of an original building on site or a folly? The only extant gable fronted buildings in D2 I can think of off the top of my head are on Molesworth st and Ely Place

    #799190

    Anonymous

    @tommyt wrote:

    aren’t we forgetting the pastiche apartments around back lane/cornmarket and the single building at 18 lwr leeson st that seems a bit bizarre-I have never ascertained if it is meant to be a replica of an original building on site or a folly? The only extant gable fronted buildings in D2 I can think of off the top of my head are on Molesworth st and Ely Place

    Those two on Molesworth St. are original curvilinear gabled house that were masked, probably in late 18th century, with a flat parapet, and then subsequently had a bit of a gabled pedement top put back on. I have a lot of stuff on Molesworth St. I’ll post up when I get a chance.

    There was an intact gabled house on Leeson St. up to about 1980. It was masked as a flat parapet, but in a way that you could still see the outline of the curvilinear gable, but it was down further towards Stephens Green than the present pastiche structure. It’s hard to know what the planning rational was for the new structure, same as with the Cornmarket scheme.

    I couldn’t find the Rocque’s map sheet that covers the south west city but I scanned up a copy from the St. Lukes conservation report that shows Newmarket in all it’s glory and I stuck a red box around no. 10 Mill St. (which was never quite as off-axis at it looked here) and the corner house (now a pub) on Newmarket / Brabazon Place.


    As narrow as Mill Lane was, it was still fronted by houses the whole way down to Mill Street.


    A pair of Dutch Billys on Newmarket, after the roof had been trimmed down to a hip at the front and the gables trimmed to the profile of the roof.


    The importance of this structure is hard to exagerate. Newmarket Square was slightly smaller than Smithfield but, whereas
    Smithfield appears to have been mostly three storey, Newmarket was probably all four storey and coming east from triangular
    gabled Chamber Street, it must have been stunning.


    On both elevations the blocked up second floor windows (identifal size and spacing to the first floor) can just be made out behind the render, meaning that all this house is actually missing is the gabled top storey.

    #799191

    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster
    #799192

    Anonymous

    I always suspected there was something more going on with Gray’s of Newmarket- thanks for the info.

    Isn’t it shut at the moment? The last few times I’ve passed it’s been boarded up, possibly dating from the shooting there a couple of years (?) ago. A cause for concern?

    Your b&w photo reminds me of this old Lawrence one that I’m quite fond of- I used to live around the corner.

    (From the NLI collection.)

    #799193

    Anonymous

    There were AFAIK two on Longford st. right up to the 1980s-they feature in a neville Johnson picture book or some other Dublin street scenes photo collection I have seen before

    #799194

    Anonymous

    gunter (or should it be Sherlock Holmes?): good bit of sleuthing there. I find the ‘pastiche’ argument perplexing – this pub is a clear case for restoration to show what a DB would have looked like in this location (Dublin Civic Trust interested?). There is enough left to avoid the charge of Disneyfication. Come to that, Newmarket (great space waiting to be reborn) could be developed with tall, gabled bldgs not apeing some old style but getting inspiration from them, i.e a square of tall, gabled, narrow-plotted contemporary buildings recapturing the spirit of the place. Or is that too much of a challenge and we prefer a ‘mixed-use’, bigfoot slab with a few quirky (‘cutting edge’) details?

    #799195

    Anonymous

    Good stuff on Gray’s, gunter. There may be more remains of these houses around than we think.

    A common alteration to cruciform-roofed gabled houses seems to have been where the front gable was gived a hip and a flat parapet.

    So what was originally this

    … sometimes became this

    … then maybe also the whole façade was given later-Georgian proportions, as seen here at No 30 Thomas Street (centre building).

    #799196

    Anonymous

    Devin:
    I completely forgot about those three houses on Haymarket. Weren’t they knocked for some appalling extension to Tully’s Tiles? without a wimper! Wasn’t there even some Emmet connection to one of them, or was that the Georgian on the Green beside the College of Surgeons? You’re absolutely right that a lot of these houses still exist behind altered or rebuilt facades, the whole of the east side of South Fredrick Street, seen from the Kilkenny Design block, (with I think only one exception), is cruciform roofed, former gable fronted, houses with panelled interiors.

    In most cases, the Georgian rebuilding of the facade, or the masking of the gable, is now an integral part of the story of the house, and you wouldn’t attempt to reverse back to the original design, but in a few cases, like 10 Mill St. or Gray’s of Newmarket, the case for a scholarly restoration has to be a very strong one.

    In the case of Mill Street, neither version of the house now has a roof, so conservation will involve reconstruction, either way. The 1890s alterations were a pretty wilful act of mutilation on a wonderful, (by then nearly 200 year old), house, and to invest one cent in re-enacting this mutilation would be pretty hard to take when we’re dealing with a ‘last of it’s kind’ scenario.

    I think the significance of Grays is that it represents a last chance to restore the one remaining house out of the 64 that lined the edges of this wonderful, European scale, 17th century urban space. I don’t know if there’s any immediate threat to Gray’s, but I wouldn’t like to bet against it. Maybe DCC are already on top of this, you’d like to think they would be, but, every time I go down there, like you, I half expect to see a pile of rubble.

    I agree a disturbing 100% with johnglas, that what Newmarket needs urgently is a new vision with a comprehensive set of guidlines that would encourage the redevelopment of the remaining properties on the square in a way that respects the original plot widths and the scale of the original buildings with some tasty new in-fill.

    Surely it’s not too late to rescue Newmarket with some creative contemporary interventions, and with a restored Gray’s in the mix, giving it, what Smithfield has lost, a tangible link to it’s original appearance, we could have a valuable, and largely forgotten, urban space restored to Dublin’s consciousness, and not just another anonymous mix and match apartmentscape.


    Existing view looking west on Newmarket towards Chamber Street. The stone warehouses on the right form the west corner of Brabazon Place, opposite Gray’s on the east corner. The warehouses are derelict and look to be prep’d for re-development. They are 19th century replacements of the original gabled houses, but they are part of the story of the space and should be retained and worked into the redevelopment rather than bulldozed and forgotten.


    The redeveloped east end of Newmarket, with Ward’s Hill off to the right.

    Whatever about the quality of the Zoe scheme at the east end of Newmarket, it does at least reflect the original scale of of the houses which were long gone by the time this apartment scheme was built in the early 90s. The most recent apartment block is the one on the left which rather crowds out the remains of St. Luke’s church behind and seems to muscles it’s way onto the square without a lot of obvious sensitivity to the historical context.

    #799197

    Anonymous

    @johnglas wrote:

    Come to that, Newmarket (great space waiting to be reborn) could be developed with tall, gabled bldgs not apeing some old style but getting inspiration from them, i.e a square of tall, gabled, narrow-plotted contemporary buildings recapturing the spirit of the place. Or is that too much of a challenge and we prefer a ‘mixed-use’, bigfoot slab with a few quirky (‘cutting edge’) details?

    This level of agreement can’t last, but, while we’re at it, here’s a photograph of some modern gabled in-fill from Bremen that impressed me enough to get the camera out.

    I’m not saying it’s perfect, but I think it illustrates your point.

    The plaque on the wall records what this little square was like before the war.

    There are times that I think we might have been better off if we had been bombed to dust on a single night, rather than suffer the slow grinding destruction of neglect over decades. At least then we might have had to take a long hard look at the city and we might have noticed that bits were missing and, just maybe, a bit of thought might have gone into putting that right.

    #799198

    Anonymous

    gunter: I’m disturbed you’re disturbed, but I’ll try and keep up the good work! The Bremer Wohnungen are just fabulous – but do you see any Brit/Irish architect having the balls? Maybe that’s post-postmodern historical/contextual – no, that’s too hard isn’t it?

    #799199

    Anonymous

    I’m not touching that.

    Here’s that photograph of the door of no. 10 Mill Street. It was published in ‘The Heart of Dublin’, by Peter Pearson in 2000. A very good book, a great source for research on the city, and a real tear-jerker.

    #799200

    Anonymous

    @zap wrote:

    Thanks a lot Seerski.

    I was suspicious of the Leeson St. one – its looked like too good of an example but does look well regardless.

    I can’t find any photographs of the last surviving ‘Dutch Billy’ on Leeson St., but I found a drawing that shows it and a few of it’s neighbours, including the outline of a cruciform roofed house, shortly before demolition in 1981.

    Also, I want to post up the front page of a pamphlet that protested about the demolition at the time and included a photograph of the panelled interior. I’m not sure if the scanned text is of readably quality (doesn’t look like it to me), but if people are interested in it, I could try it again bigger and scan up the other 4 pages, which cover more on the house and other planning issues, including why Dublin should have a light rail system!

    It’s not that a lot of people weren’t making sense back then, it’s just that nobody in control was listening.


    Also an old drawing of a ‘Dutch Billy’ and a triangular gabled neighbour behind the fountain in James’s St.

    #799201

    Anonymous

    Great drawing – it reflects one of my earliest conscious memories of Dublin, when I noticed an area south of St Stephen’s Green with row after row of derelict ‘Georgian’ houses, obviously waiting quietly for the bulldozer. In 1981, I was still a planner (I would stop doing that two years later) and had taken a complete scunner to the amount of destruction going on (Glasgow was a bombsite – like Dublin, it was scarcely bombed during the war, all the damage was home-grown).
    So, however disturbing, I’m going to continue speaking out against bad development, no matter what ‘the establishment’ may think – have you seen how deadly dull most of the projects in this month’s AI are? Apart from the Killiney house (and that’s an exercise in over-salaried self-indulgence), the corporate stuff is worthy but unexciting. A whole town-full of that stuff would send us all to sleep.

    #799202

    Anonymous

    as much as it breaks my heart its clear we havent learnt from the mistakes made in the not too distant past. I have a real fear that the remianing areas of the cities with sizable concentrations of historic building are simply being left to rot.

    The state of thomas street and the Northern gerogian quarter is a disgrace . The intentional dereliction that developers are permitted to get away with is a joke. Its time we take stock of what we have left and protect it.

    #799203

    Anonymous

    aj: I’ve long thought that Dublin needs to define the city as the area within the canals and then adopt a strong policy with a presumption against demolition and for conservation. Your City Fathers (and Mothers) could do worse than have a trip to Edinburgh; it has its faults (oh, yes!) and can be very grey on a grey day, but it has a strong image of itself and takes no prisoners when it comes to conservation. The idea that ‘site accumulation’/demolition/rebuild/we-need -to-develop-the-whole-block-in-a-trendy-style equates with progress is just junk. It equates with making a fast buck and destroying the city’s patrimony, and too many architects seem prepared to go along with it.

    #799204

    Anonymous

    @nono wrote:

    there’s a rather fine example at the top of manor st. but like most it has a parapet at the top, the original roof is still clearly visible, and a rather peculiar tower at the rear!

    That big house on Manor Street is a gem, but I would be 95% certain it was never a ‘Dutch Billy’. It’s in the same tradition, but I think it’s a transitional house using many of the features and building techniques of the gabled tradition, but with the new flat parapet from the start.

    Almost every other house in Dublin with a pair of apex roofs was a twin ‘Dutch Billy’ (Bachelors Walk, James’s St. etc.), you simply didn’t go to the bother of constructing two roofs unless it was to exploit the potential for a pair of gables, but the Manor St. house is hipped front and back and has, what appears to be, an original moulded granite coping to the parapet, which is quite rare.

    The orange brickwork around many of the windows could be considered an original feature in London, but here, it’s definitely a repair.

    The scale of the windows on the second floor is inexplicable, you’d need to have a good rummage around the inside to begin to explain these. The building is a creche, so if anyone has a small kid . . .


    This is the nearest London equivalent that I know of, Dr. Johnston’s house of circa. 1700. If this house was in Dublin, there is no question it would have had twin Dutch gables, like 10 Mill St., but there is no evidence that this was the case in London

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  • #799184

    Anonymous
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    There is a house with a dutch style gable on talbot street, its part of a furniture shop, i don’t know anything else about it.

    #799186

    Anonymous
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    10 Mill street is part of an application from Osprey Property(Eircom) to turn their large holding on Mill Street into Apartments. Part of the application mentions removing the existing flat roof from Nr. 10 and putting a slate roof back on it. There was a conservation report conducted by the Dublin Civic Trust – who no longer exist I think – but the website remains. .

    I’m surpised to see 10 Mill Street in Red brick. I thought Red Brick only got popular in Victorian times.

    Also on the way up to see it I came accross this other Meteor sponsored Dutch Billy.

    However I don’t believe the everybody in Dublin in 1650/1700 lived in houses as grand as these. Is there a record of the vernaclular house for that period?

    #799187

    Anonymous
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    The Dublin Civic Trust http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/ remains extremely active, even if their News & Events page hasn’t been updated for a long time.

    #799188

    Anonymous
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    Our dwindling stock of gabled houses is a topic that has come up on various threads, ‘Dublin Vistas’, ‘Thomas St./James’s St.’ etc., but I think, as an endangered species, this forgotten remnant of our built heritage deserves a thread of it’s own.

    The explosion in the construction of curvilinear gabled houses throughout Dublin, and across most of the other urban centres of Ireland, in the last decades of the 17th century, and which continued to be the dominant urban style in residential architecture into the 1740s, deserves a closer look.

    The best published references that I know of are: the ‘Dutch Billys’ article by Peter walsh in the 1973 ‘Liberties of Dublin’ ed. Elgy Gillespie, and pgs. 29 -61 of McCullough’s ‘Dublin, an Urban History’. Maurice Craig ‘Dublin 1660 – 1860‘ just about acknowledges the presence of gabled houses but his passion was for the classical Georgian city.

    So completely have the gabled streets of Dublin been lost, or masked, that the tendency has been to regard the dimly remembered curvilinear gabled houses as some kind of neanderthal off-shoot in the evolutionary process that shortly afterwards delivered the presumed perfection of ‘Georgian’ Dublin. Part of this may have been down to the agressive marketing of Luke Gardiner and his circle, who, in a very short space of time, managed to persuade upwardly mobile Dubliners that, not only were they living in the wrong part of town, but they were also living in the wrong design of house.

    One of the ironies of the ‘Dutch Billy’ is that, by about 1730, the style was so ubiquitous and so well developed, that it must have constituted something very close to a national architectural style. Dispite having huge loyalist Williamite conatations, curvilinear gabled houses appear to be an Irish phenomenon, were fasionable in Dublin in the years before there was any consciousness of Dutch Billy himself, and most amazingly, the ‘Dutch Billy’ does not seem to exist in England at all. You can scan the backgrounds of all the Hogarth prints and Canneletto paintings of London you like, there are no Dutch gabled houses there!

    McCullough points to the obvious trading links with Europe, and Holland in particular, as the likely source of the
    initial outbreak, and Dutch architects were evident on the ground in Dublin in the period, but that can only be part of the story. On very few occassions, before or since, have Dublin and London taken such divergent routes.

    The fact that the pivotal battle of the era took place in Ireland, and the fact that it ushered in an unprecedented period of stability, prosperity and growth, may go towards explaining the extraordinary degree to which Loyalist Ireland took William of Orange to their hearts, perhaps up to and including the desire to live in houses that honoured his memory in bricks and mortar. In England, where William was probably more regarded as just another king, and where Holland was more directly perceived as a fierce trading rival, no particular desire may have emerged to go Dutch in house design.

    Whatever about the origins of the style, what developed here was a full blown architectural movement with a complex language and a real urban vitality that none of Luke Gardiner’s sober ‘Georgian’ street would ever equal, in my opinion. To compare a complex ‘Dutch Billy’ corner with the half hearted efforts of the Georgians is to compare a piece of sculpture with a photocopy. The development of the close twin or ‘Siamese’ gabled house, as a response to the common urban phenominon of the wedge shaped corner site, may even have been a Dublin invention.

    The loss that Dublin suffered in going over to the Luke Gardiner led English Palladian model, and turning it’s back on it’s indigenous urban tradition, is not just about the near irradication of the whole record of an architectural style, it’s also about the substitution of a slightly superficial, segregated and imported model, for a truely urban, mixed use and socially integrated model.

    I don’t want to keep dumping on Luke Gardiner, given that he has attained such iconic status as the developer that all other developers are supposed to look up to, but his legacy is decidedly mixed at best. If we use the anology of red squirrels and grey squirrels. Imagine Dublin as a little wooded glade alive with happy little native red squirrels buzzing about in sylvan harmony. Then a man walks into the clearing with a sack of foreign ravenous grey squirrels and proceeds to dump them out. I’m just suggesting that, in that analogy, that man is Luke Gardiner, and he is an ugly man, and he smells.

    I’ll stick up as many pictures as I can over the next while to try and illustrate the points I’ve made here, but the primary concern has to be to safeguard the few houses that remain, albeit in their altered Georgian form.

    This stretch of James’s Street opposite the Fountain contains at least two originally gabled houses, the pink house was a simple small curvilinear gabled house and it’s neighbour to the right, dispite it’s minute size, was a twin gabled house, which I think illustrates the real consciousness of the urban rhythm that the sequence of gables were capable of creating.

    No. 10 Mill Street now and as illustrated in the 19th century below.

    #799189

    Anonymous
    • Offline

    aren’t we forgetting the pastiche apartments around back lane/cornmarket and the single building at 18 lwr leeson st that seems a bit bizarre-I have never ascertained if it is meant to be a replica of an original building on site or a folly? The only extant gable fronted buildings in D2 I can think of off the top of my head are on Molesworth st and Ely Place

    #799190

    Anonymous
    • Offline

    @tommyt wrote:

    aren’t we forgetting the pastiche apartments around back lane/cornmarket and the single building at 18 lwr leeson st that seems a bit bizarre-I have never ascertained if it is meant to be a replica of an original building on site or a folly? The only extant gable fronted buildings in D2 I can think of off the top of my head are on Molesworth st and Ely Place

    Those two on Molesworth St. are original curvilinear gabled house that were masked, probably in late 18th century, with a flat parapet, and then subsequently had a bit of a gabled pedement top put back on. I have a lot of stuff on Molesworth St. I’ll post up when I get a chance.

    There was an intact gabled house on Leeson St. up to about 1980. It was masked as a flat parapet, but in a way that you could still see the outline of the curvilinear gable, but it was down further towards Stephens Green than the present pastiche structure. It’s hard to know what the planning rational was for the new structure, same as with the Cornmarket scheme.

    I couldn’t find the Rocque’s map sheet that covers the south west city but I scanned up a copy from the St. Lukes conservation report that shows Newmarket in all it’s glory and I stuck a red box around no. 10 Mill St. (which was never quite as off-axis at it looked here) and the corner house (now a pub) on Newmarket / Brabazon Place.


    As narrow as Mill Lane was, it was still fronted by houses the whole way down to Mill Street.


    A pair of Dutch Billys on Newmarket, after the roof had been trimmed down to a hip at the front and the gables trimmed to the profile of the roof.


    The importance of this structure is hard to exagerate. Newmarket Square was slightly smaller than Smithfield but, whereas
    Smithfield appears to have been mostly three storey, Newmarket was probably all four storey and coming east from triangular
    gabled Chamber Street, it must have been stunning.


    On both elevations the blocked up second floor windows (identifal size and spacing to the first floor) can just be made out behind the render, meaning that all this house is actually missing is the gabled top storey.

    #799191
    #799192

    Anonymous
    • Offline

    I always suspected there was something more going on with Gray’s of Newmarket- thanks for the info.

    Isn’t it shut at the moment? The last few times I’ve passed it’s been boarded up, possibly dating from the shooting there a couple of years (?) ago. A cause for concern?

    Your b&w photo reminds me of this old Lawrence one that I’m quite fond of- I used to live around the corner.

    (From the NLI collection.)

    #799193

    Anonymous
    • Offline

    There were AFAIK two on Longford st. right up to the 1980s-they feature in a neville Johnson picture book or some other Dublin street scenes photo collection I have seen before

    #799194

    Anonymous
    • Offline

    gunter (or should it be Sherlock Holmes?): good bit of sleuthing there. I find the ‘pastiche’ argument perplexing – this pub is a clear case for restoration to show what a DB would have looked like in this location (Dublin Civic Trust interested?). There is enough left to avoid the charge of Disneyfication. Come to that, Newmarket (great space waiting to be reborn) could be developed with tall, gabled bldgs not apeing some old style but getting inspiration from them, i.e a square of tall, gabled, narrow-plotted contemporary buildings recapturing the spirit of the place. Or is that too much of a challenge and we prefer a ‘mixed-use’, bigfoot slab with a few quirky (‘cutting edge’) details?

    #799195

    Anonymous
    • Offline

    Good stuff on Gray’s, gunter. There may be more remains of these houses around than we think.

    A common alteration to cruciform-roofed gabled houses seems to have been where the front gable was gived a hip and a flat parapet.

    So what was originally this

    … sometimes became this

    … then maybe also the whole façade was given later-Georgian proportions, as seen here at No 30 Thomas Street (centre building).

    #799196

    Anonymous
    • Offline

    Devin:
    I completely forgot about those three houses on Haymarket. Weren’t they knocked for some appalling extension to Tully’s Tiles? without a wimper! Wasn’t there even some Emmet connection to one of them, or was that the Georgian on the Green beside the College of Surgeons? You’re absolutely right that a lot of these houses still exist behind altered or rebuilt facades, the whole of the east side of South Fredrick Street, seen from the Kilkenny Design block, (with I think only one exception), is cruciform roofed, former gable fronted, houses with panelled interiors.

    In most cases, the Georgian rebuilding of the facade, or the masking of the gable, is now an integral part of the story of the house, and you wouldn’t attempt to reverse back to the original design, but in a few cases, like 10 Mill St. or Gray’s of Newmarket, the case for a scholarly restoration has to be a very strong one.

    In the case of Mill Street, neither version of the house now has a roof, so conservation will involve reconstruction, either way. The 1890s alterations were a pretty wilful act of mutilation on a wonderful, (by then nearly 200 year old), house, and to invest one cent in re-enacting this mutilation would be pretty hard to take when we’re dealing with a ‘last of it’s kind’ scenario.

    I think the significance of Grays is that it represents a last chance to restore the one remaining house out of the 64 that lined the edges of this wonderful, European scale, 17th century urban space. I don’t know if there’s any immediate threat to Gray’s, but I wouldn’t like to bet against it. Maybe DCC are already on top of this, you’d like to think they would be, but, every time I go down there, like you, I half expect to see a pile of rubble.

    I agree a disturbing 100% with johnglas, that what Newmarket needs urgently is a new vision with a comprehensive set of guidlines that would encourage the redevelopment of the remaining properties on the square in a way that respects the original plot widths and the scale of the original buildings with some tasty new in-fill.

    Surely it’s not too late to rescue Newmarket with some creative contemporary interventions, and with a restored Gray’s in the mix, giving it, what Smithfield has lost, a tangible link to it’s original appearance, we could have a valuable, and largely forgotten, urban space restored to Dublin’s consciousness, and not just another anonymous mix and match apartmentscape.


    Existing view looking west on Newmarket towards Chamber Street. The stone warehouses on the right form the west corner of Brabazon Place, opposite Gray’s on the east corner. The warehouses are derelict and look to be prep’d for re-development. They are 19th century replacements of the original gabled houses, but they are part of the story of the space and should be retained and worked into the redevelopment rather than bulldozed and forgotten.


    The redeveloped east end of Newmarket, with Ward’s Hill off to the right.

    Whatever about the quality of the Zoe scheme at the east end of Newmarket, it does at least reflect the original scale of of the houses which were long gone by the time this apartment scheme was built in the early 90s. The most recent apartment block is the one on the left which rather crowds out the remains of St. Luke’s church behind and seems to muscles it’s way onto the square without a lot of obvious sensitivity to the historical context.

    #799197

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    @johnglas wrote:

    Come to that, Newmarket (great space waiting to be reborn) could be developed with tall, gabled bldgs not apeing some old style but getting inspiration from them, i.e a square of tall, gabled, narrow-plotted contemporary buildings recapturing the spirit of the place. Or is that too much of a challenge and we prefer a ‘mixed-use’, bigfoot slab with a few quirky (‘cutting edge’) details?

    This level of agreement can’t last, but, while we’re at it, here’s a photograph of some modern gabled in-fill from Bremen that impressed me enough to get the camera out.

    I’m not saying it’s perfect, but I think it illustrates your point.

    The plaque on the wall records what this little square was like before the war.

    There are times that I think we might have been better off if we had been bombed to dust on a single night, rather than suffer the slow grinding destruction of neglect over decades. At least then we might have had to take a long hard look at the city and we might have noticed that bits were missing and, just maybe, a bit of thought might have gone into putting that right.

    #799198

    Anonymous
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    gunter: I’m disturbed you’re disturbed, but I’ll try and keep up the good work! The Bremer Wohnungen are just fabulous – but do you see any Brit/Irish architect having the balls? Maybe that’s post-postmodern historical/contextual – no, that’s too hard isn’t it?

    #799199

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    I’m not touching that.

    Here’s that photograph of the door of no. 10 Mill Street. It was published in ‘The Heart of Dublin’, by Peter Pearson in 2000. A very good book, a great source for research on the city, and a real tear-jerker.

    #799200

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    @zap wrote:

    Thanks a lot Seerski.

    I was suspicious of the Leeson St. one – its looked like too good of an example but does look well regardless.

    I can’t find any photographs of the last surviving ‘Dutch Billy’ on Leeson St., but I found a drawing that shows it and a few of it’s neighbours, including the outline of a cruciform roofed house, shortly before demolition in 1981.

    Also, I want to post up the front page of a pamphlet that protested about the demolition at the time and included a photograph of the panelled interior. I’m not sure if the scanned text is of readably quality (doesn’t look like it to me), but if people are interested in it, I could try it again bigger and scan up the other 4 pages, which cover more on the house and other planning issues, including why Dublin should have a light rail system!

    It’s not that a lot of people weren’t making sense back then, it’s just that nobody in control was listening.


    Also an old drawing of a ‘Dutch Billy’ and a triangular gabled neighbour behind the fountain in James’s St.

    #799201

    Anonymous
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    Great drawing – it reflects one of my earliest conscious memories of Dublin, when I noticed an area south of St Stephen’s Green with row after row of derelict ‘Georgian’ houses, obviously waiting quietly for the bulldozer. In 1981, I was still a planner (I would stop doing that two years later) and had taken a complete scunner to the amount of destruction going on (Glasgow was a bombsite – like Dublin, it was scarcely bombed during the war, all the damage was home-grown).
    So, however disturbing, I’m going to continue speaking out against bad development, no matter what ‘the establishment’ may think – have you seen how deadly dull most of the projects in this month’s AI are? Apart from the Killiney house (and that’s an exercise in over-salaried self-indulgence), the corporate stuff is worthy but unexciting. A whole town-full of that stuff would send us all to sleep.

    #799202

    Anonymous
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    as much as it breaks my heart its clear we havent learnt from the mistakes made in the not too distant past. I have a real fear that the remianing areas of the cities with sizable concentrations of historic building are simply being left to rot.

    The state of thomas street and the Northern gerogian quarter is a disgrace . The intentional dereliction that developers are permitted to get away with is a joke. Its time we take stock of what we have left and protect it.

    #799203

    Anonymous
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    aj: I’ve long thought that Dublin needs to define the city as the area within the canals and then adopt a strong policy with a presumption against demolition and for conservation. Your City Fathers (and Mothers) could do worse than have a trip to Edinburgh; it has its faults (oh, yes!) and can be very grey on a grey day, but it has a strong image of itself and takes no prisoners when it comes to conservation. The idea that ‘site accumulation’/demolition/rebuild/we-need -to-develop-the-whole-block-in-a-trendy-style equates with progress is just junk. It equates with making a fast buck and destroying the city’s patrimony, and too many architects seem prepared to go along with it.

    #799204

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    @nono wrote:

    there’s a rather fine example at the top of manor st. but like most it has a parapet at the top, the original roof is still clearly visible, and a rather peculiar tower at the rear!

    That big house on Manor Street is a gem, but I would be 95% certain it was never a ‘Dutch Billy’. It’s in the same tradition, but I think it’s a transitional house using many of the features and building techniques of the gabled tradition, but with the new flat parapet from the start.

    Almost every other house in Dublin with a pair of apex roofs was a twin ‘Dutch Billy’ (Bachelors Walk, James’s St. etc.), you simply didn’t go to the bother of constructing two roofs unless it was to exploit the potential for a pair of gables, but the Manor St. house is hipped front and back and has, what appears to be, an original moulded granite coping to the parapet, which is quite rare.

    The orange brickwork around many of the windows could be considered an original feature in London, but here, it’s definitely a repair.

    The scale of the windows on the second floor is inexplicable, you’d need to have a good rummage around the inside to begin to explain these. The building is a creche, so if anyone has a small kid . . .


    This is the nearest London equivalent that I know of, Dr. Johnston’s house of circa. 1700. If this house was in Dublin, there is no question it would have had twin Dutch gables, like 10 Mill St., but there is no evidence that this was the case in London

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