reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Home Forums Ireland reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

This topic contains 7,923 replies, has 105 voices, and was last updated by  willsonjosep 1 year, 3 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 21 through 40 (of 7,923 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #767234

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    That is indeed a million dollar question.

    #767235

    MacLeinin
    Participant

    You would think that after his disastrous fiddling with the pro-cathedral, he would have learnt his lesson.
    I am told one local wag in Cobh referred to his current plans for the interior as an ‘ice rinque’

    #767236

    Gianlorenzo
    Participant

    The Friends of St. Colman’s Cathedral are made up of a group of concerned Cobh parishioners, none of whom are on the parish council. To clarify information posted by Thomond Park

    #767237

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Does anyone have any biographical or professional information re Thomas Aloysius Coleman (1865-1952), who was George Ashlin’s partner while working on the completion of St. Colman’s Cathedral?

    #767238

    ctesiphon
    Participant

    A former colleague of mine wrote a History of Art thesis in Trinity in 1999 or so, either M.Litt or M.Phil, on Ashlin. I’m sure it would have some info you require. I’ll send you her email by private message.
    Also, the office of Ashlin and Coleman still exists, though without family connections to Ashlin or Coleman, I believe. They might be able to help re old drawings, company archives etc. A quick google gives two addresses: 36 Pembroke Road, D.4, or 1 Grant’s Row, off Lwr Mount St, D.2, and an email (possibly out of date) of info@ashlincoleman.com

    #767239

    MacLeinin
    Participant

    Is that it? Is the whole of Ireland ‘comfortably numb’ ? Does writing here constitute action? Do we just let the Bishop and O’Neill get away with this? We can’t blame the politicians for this one. You all seem to know what you are talking about so tell me what can one do about this sort of thing?

    #767240

    descamps
    Participant

    I was in Cork last week and went out to see the cathedral in Cobh. It is truly spectacular and it is a small miracle that it has survived for so long without the kind of ravages practiced on Killarney by Eamonn Casey or on Monaghan by Joe Duffy. Looking over the plans for this fine little gem, I cannot help but think that John Magee and Tom Cavanagh (aka Mr. Tidy towns of Ireland) have more money than sense – or good taste.

    #767241

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Perhaps the comments on architectural theory contained in the following link could be brought to bear on the Cobh Cathedral business: http://www.profil.at/?/articles/0544/560/125321.shtml

    #767242

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Further interesting comments are available on the subject of liturgy and architecture at http://www.kreuz.net/article.2121.html . Unfortunately, the English and French translations are very inadequate.

    #767243

    Peter Parler
    Participant

    Has Bishop Magee no fear of God? Could they not get Pope Benedict to scribble him a quick note to let him know they’ll soon be putting everything back the way it was before the liturgical vandals were let loose?

    #767244

    Gianlorenzo
    Participant

    “When men have come to the edge of a precipice, it is the lover of life who has the spirit to leap backwards, and only the pessimist who continues to believe in progress.”

    “It is of the new things that men tire – of fashions and proposals and improvements and change. It is the old things that startle and intoxicate. It is the old things that are young.”

    Do pessimists fear God?

    #767245

    Peter Parler
    Participant

    The article referred to by Praxiteles in #28 is absolutely relevant to poor Cobh. The Lady Church in Dresden was destoyed free of charge in 1945 and in its ruined state remained a monument to the barbarity of war and the atheistic convictions of Communism until its resurrection began in 1990, a symbol of generosity, reconciliation and a new freedom. Surely at this time of episcopal shame the Bishop of Cloyne could offer a similar generosity, reconciliation and renewal of freedom to the Friends of Saint Colman’s and all who care for our religious and architectural heritage, at minimal pain to himself or the coffers of his Diocese. Isn’t there something in the Gospel against Christians forcing one another to appeal to civil tribunals for justice? Isn’t pride a terrible, terrible thing? Haven’t we all better things to be doing?

    #767246

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Someone has pointed out to me that in 1999, the Cobh Cathedral restoration Committee received a grant of some £8,937 from the Heritage Council to finance a conservation study of St. Colman’s Cathedral.

    The Conservation study was completed in early 2001 by Carrig of Dublin. This fine and original study was very competently carried out by Jesse Castle Metlitski and Richard Oram.

    Along with synthesizing a vast amount of archival material, much of which was examined for the first time, the study produced an important photographic archive of Cobh Cathedral.

    The authors of the study concluded: “The wealth of information and sources pertaining to the design and construction of St. Colman’s can provide a unique insight into the whole process of the construction of such a building as this cathedral while providing a remarkable record. The importance of this material can not be overstated. This, together with the definitive record which is the cathedral itself, must be preserved and safeguarded for future generations”.

    The authors also note: “The design is very finely tuned and any interventions which might contradict the delicate interplay of parts have the potential to compromise the architectural quality of the building. When St Colman’s was build it was already one of the finst expressions of the Gothic Revival style in Ireland. This eminence has been held to the present day”.

    The proposals for the reordering of the Cathedral’s interior pay not the slightest heed to such remarks and have been elaborated as though the Metlitski/Oram conservation report never happened.

    #767247

    johannas
    Participant

    Does anyone have any information about Ludwig Oppenheimer’s career?

    #767248

    MacLeinin
    Participant

    Information on Ludwig Oppenheimer is difficult to come by. What I know is that, in addition to St. Colman’s Cathedral, he is credited with the magnificent mosaics in the National Museum of Ireland –Archaeology and History. The floors are decorated with scenes from classical mythology and allegory, and are worth a visit to the museum in themselves. He is also credited with the wonderful mosaic floor of the Honan Chapel, University College, Cork. Biographical details for Oppenheimer, I have found, is very difficult to come by, perhaps other visitor this site may be able to help.

    #767249

    ctesiphon
    Participant

    There was a lavishly illustrated monograph published not so long ago on the Honan Chapel (maybe by Cork University Press?). It might have some leads.

    #767250

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    This must have been Virginia Teehan and Elizabeth Wincott-Heckett’s The Honan Chapel: A Golden Vision published by Cork University Press in 2004. Chapter 5 of same, by Jane Hawkes, has a long excursus on the symbolism of the magnificent mosaic floor which is by Ludwig Oppenheimer. He is also responsible for the stations of the cross in opus sectile. Oppenheimer’s work in the Honan Chapel was never publicized for it was the only work carried out there by a non Irish company. It has been suggested that he was commissioned to execute the mosaic floor and the stations of the cross through the influence of the Cork architect Thomas Newhenam Deane or of W. A. Scott who had worked on the Dublin Museum. As in Cobh Cathedral, Oppenheimer’s mosaic work was complemented in the Honan Chapel by the brass and iron work of J&G McGloughlin of Dublin.

    #767251

    MacLeinin
    Participant

    Information on Ludwig Oppenheimer is difficult to come by. What I know is that, in addition to St. Colman’s Cathedral, he is credited with the magnificent mosaics in the National Museum of Ireland –Archaeology and History. The floors are decorated with scenes from classical mythology and allegory, and are worth a visit to the museum in themselves. He is also credited with the wonderful mosaic floor of the Honan Chapel, University College, Cork.
    Biographical details for Oppenheimer, is very difficult to come by, perhaps other visitor this site may be able to help.

    #767252

    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Ludwig Oppenheimer may well be responsible for the very elaborate moasic work on the floor and walls of the chancel of the church of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Charleville, Co. Cork. This work is about a decade later than Cobh Cathedral (Walter Doolin exhibited designs for the church at RHA in 1898) but the similarities are unmistakable (e.g. the floors of the Sacred Heart and Lady Chapels in Cobh and Charleville). Unfortunately, the floor in the main chancel space in Charleville has been buried under several tons of concrete to make an emplacment for a hidiously unsympathetic re-ordering. It is possible that Oppenheimer’ may have had the commission in Charleville through the patronage of Bishop Robert Browne who was a native of Charleville and, in contrast with the present encumbent in Cobh, a very generous benefactor both of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh ,and of the new parish church in Charleville.

    #767253

    GrahamH
    Participant

    Another case of mosaics being covered over is in a modest but significant Ralph Byrne church c1920 in the North East, where the usual finance commitee of the parish elite saw fit to cover over the highly attractive grape vine mosaics of the altar floor with ‘a nice bit of carpet’ in the late 90s.
    A large timber step was also partially built on top to regularise the step line and was also covered in carpet, which not only completely altered the nature of the altar design, but no doubt damaged the mosaics beneath too by its attachment to them, as with the carpet grippers drilled or glued onto the marble edging.
    You see this type of practice a lot in small to middle-sized churches which is a great shame.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #767234

    Praxiteles
    Participant
    • Offline

    That is indeed a million dollar question.

    #767235

    MacLeinin
    Participant
    • Offline

    You would think that after his disastrous fiddling with the pro-cathedral, he would have learnt his lesson.
    I am told one local wag in Cobh referred to his current plans for the interior as an ‘ice rinque’

    #767236

    Gianlorenzo
    Participant
    • Offline

    The Friends of St. Colman’s Cathedral are made up of a group of concerned Cobh parishioners, none of whom are on the parish council. To clarify information posted by Thomond Park

    #767237

    Praxiteles
    Participant
    • Offline

    Does anyone have any biographical or professional information re Thomas Aloysius Coleman (1865-1952), who was George Ashlin’s partner while working on the completion of St. Colman’s Cathedral?

    #767238

    ctesiphon
    Participant
    • Offline

    A former colleague of mine wrote a History of Art thesis in Trinity in 1999 or so, either M.Litt or M.Phil, on Ashlin. I’m sure it would have some info you require. I’ll send you her email by private message.
    Also, the office of Ashlin and Coleman still exists, though without family connections to Ashlin or Coleman, I believe. They might be able to help re old drawings, company archives etc. A quick google gives two addresses: 36 Pembroke Road, D.4, or 1 Grant’s Row, off Lwr Mount St, D.2, and an email (possibly out of date) of info@ashlincoleman.com

    #767239

    MacLeinin
    Participant
    • Offline

    Is that it? Is the whole of Ireland ‘comfortably numb’ ? Does writing here constitute action? Do we just let the Bishop and O’Neill get away with this? We can’t blame the politicians for this one. You all seem to know what you are talking about so tell me what can one do about this sort of thing?

    #767240

    descamps
    Participant
    • Offline

    I was in Cork last week and went out to see the cathedral in Cobh. It is truly spectacular and it is a small miracle that it has survived for so long without the kind of ravages practiced on Killarney by Eamonn Casey or on Monaghan by Joe Duffy. Looking over the plans for this fine little gem, I cannot help but think that John Magee and Tom Cavanagh (aka Mr. Tidy towns of Ireland) have more money than sense – or good taste.

    #767241

    Praxiteles
    Participant
    • Offline

    Perhaps the comments on architectural theory contained in the following link could be brought to bear on the Cobh Cathedral business: http://www.profil.at/?/articles/0544/560/125321.shtml

    #767242

    Praxiteles
    Participant
    • Offline

    Further interesting comments are available on the subject of liturgy and architecture at http://www.kreuz.net/article.2121.html . Unfortunately, the English and French translations are very inadequate.

    #767243

    Peter Parler
    Participant
    • Offline

    Has Bishop Magee no fear of God? Could they not get Pope Benedict to scribble him a quick note to let him know they’ll soon be putting everything back the way it was before the liturgical vandals were let loose?

    #767244

    Gianlorenzo
    Participant
    • Offline

    “When men have come to the edge of a precipice, it is the lover of life who has the spirit to leap backwards, and only the pessimist who continues to believe in progress.”

    “It is of the new things that men tire – of fashions and proposals and improvements and change. It is the old things that startle and intoxicate. It is the old things that are young.”

    Do pessimists fear God?

    #767245

    Peter Parler
    Participant
    • Offline

    The article referred to by Praxiteles in #28 is absolutely relevant to poor Cobh. The Lady Church in Dresden was destoyed free of charge in 1945 and in its ruined state remained a monument to the barbarity of war and the atheistic convictions of Communism until its resurrection began in 1990, a symbol of generosity, reconciliation and a new freedom. Surely at this time of episcopal shame the Bishop of Cloyne could offer a similar generosity, reconciliation and renewal of freedom to the Friends of Saint Colman’s and all who care for our religious and architectural heritage, at minimal pain to himself or the coffers of his Diocese. Isn’t there something in the Gospel against Christians forcing one another to appeal to civil tribunals for justice? Isn’t pride a terrible, terrible thing? Haven’t we all better things to be doing?

    #767246

    Praxiteles
    Participant
    • Offline

    Someone has pointed out to me that in 1999, the Cobh Cathedral restoration Committee received a grant of some £8,937 from the Heritage Council to finance a conservation study of St. Colman’s Cathedral.

    The Conservation study was completed in early 2001 by Carrig of Dublin. This fine and original study was very competently carried out by Jesse Castle Metlitski and Richard Oram.

    Along with synthesizing a vast amount of archival material, much of which was examined for the first time, the study produced an important photographic archive of Cobh Cathedral.

    The authors of the study concluded: “The wealth of information and sources pertaining to the design and construction of St. Colman’s can provide a unique insight into the whole process of the construction of such a building as this cathedral while providing a remarkable record. The importance of this material can not be overstated. This, together with the definitive record which is the cathedral itself, must be preserved and safeguarded for future generations”.

    The authors also note: “The design is very finely tuned and any interventions which might contradict the delicate interplay of parts have the potential to compromise the architectural quality of the building. When St Colman’s was build it was already one of the finst expressions of the Gothic Revival style in Ireland. This eminence has been held to the present day”.

    The proposals for the reordering of the Cathedral’s interior pay not the slightest heed to such remarks and have been elaborated as though the Metlitski/Oram conservation report never happened.

    #767247

    johannas
    Participant
    • Offline

    Does anyone have any information about Ludwig Oppenheimer’s career?

    #767248

    MacLeinin
    Participant
    • Offline

    Information on Ludwig Oppenheimer is difficult to come by. What I know is that, in addition to St. Colman’s Cathedral, he is credited with the magnificent mosaics in the National Museum of Ireland –Archaeology and History. The floors are decorated with scenes from classical mythology and allegory, and are worth a visit to the museum in themselves. He is also credited with the wonderful mosaic floor of the Honan Chapel, University College, Cork. Biographical details for Oppenheimer, I have found, is very difficult to come by, perhaps other visitor this site may be able to help.

    #767249

    ctesiphon
    Participant
    • Offline

    There was a lavishly illustrated monograph published not so long ago on the Honan Chapel (maybe by Cork University Press?). It might have some leads.

    #767250

    Praxiteles
    Participant
    • Offline

    This must have been Virginia Teehan and Elizabeth Wincott-Heckett’s The Honan Chapel: A Golden Vision published by Cork University Press in 2004. Chapter 5 of same, by Jane Hawkes, has a long excursus on the symbolism of the magnificent mosaic floor which is by Ludwig Oppenheimer. He is also responsible for the stations of the cross in opus sectile. Oppenheimer’s work in the Honan Chapel was never publicized for it was the only work carried out there by a non Irish company. It has been suggested that he was commissioned to execute the mosaic floor and the stations of the cross through the influence of the Cork architect Thomas Newhenam Deane or of W. A. Scott who had worked on the Dublin Museum. As in Cobh Cathedral, Oppenheimer’s mosaic work was complemented in the Honan Chapel by the brass and iron work of J&G McGloughlin of Dublin.

    #767251

    MacLeinin
    Participant
    • Offline

    Information on Ludwig Oppenheimer is difficult to come by. What I know is that, in addition to St. Colman’s Cathedral, he is credited with the magnificent mosaics in the National Museum of Ireland –Archaeology and History. The floors are decorated with scenes from classical mythology and allegory, and are worth a visit to the museum in themselves. He is also credited with the wonderful mosaic floor of the Honan Chapel, University College, Cork.
    Biographical details for Oppenheimer, is very difficult to come by, perhaps other visitor this site may be able to help.

    #767252

    Praxiteles
    Participant
    • Offline

    Ludwig Oppenheimer may well be responsible for the very elaborate moasic work on the floor and walls of the chancel of the church of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Charleville, Co. Cork. This work is about a decade later than Cobh Cathedral (Walter Doolin exhibited designs for the church at RHA in 1898) but the similarities are unmistakable (e.g. the floors of the Sacred Heart and Lady Chapels in Cobh and Charleville). Unfortunately, the floor in the main chancel space in Charleville has been buried under several tons of concrete to make an emplacment for a hidiously unsympathetic re-ordering. It is possible that Oppenheimer’ may have had the commission in Charleville through the patronage of Bishop Robert Browne who was a native of Charleville and, in contrast with the present encumbent in Cobh, a very generous benefactor both of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh ,and of the new parish church in Charleville.

    #767253

    GrahamH
    Participant
    • Offline

    Another case of mosaics being covered over is in a modest but significant Ralph Byrne church c1920 in the North East, where the usual finance commitee of the parish elite saw fit to cover over the highly attractive grape vine mosaics of the altar floor with ‘a nice bit of carpet’ in the late 90s.
    A large timber step was also partially built on top to regularise the step line and was also covered in carpet, which not only completely altered the nature of the altar design, but no doubt damaged the mosaics beneath too by its attachment to them, as with the carpet grippers drilled or glued onto the marble edging.
    You see this type of practice a lot in small to middle-sized churches which is a great shame.

Viewing 20 posts - 21 through 40 (of 7,923 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Latest News