Irish say no to PVC windows

[Devin]

Meanwhile, the PVC machine ploughs on:







Athy 1.
The PVC-ing of the nearest building in this picture and part of the second one seems to have tipped the balance against authenticity in this group of three former shop-houses on Offaly Street, a side-street which leads eastwards out of Athy.

You can see the scene here about 30 years ago, with the shops open - maybe one was a creamery ... and another a sweetshop ... the town going about its business.
The traffic on this street now is unbearable - you walk quickly along it. Most of the cars are no doubt going to and from one-off houses - of which the Kildare countryside is covered in - while the streets of the town itself are almost dead as a living area. Same old story everywhere in Ireland today I suppose.









Athy 2.
We really know how to treat our vernacular buildings, don't we? Offaly Street also (it can be seen in the distance in the previous pics).








Athy 3.
Sooner or later, every innocent little building cops it!








Church Gardens, Rathmines.
I lived in the area when I was a student in the '90s and this pre-war house was always kept nicely with original steel windows while all the others on the street had been changed. It was something of a landmark at the top of the street with the streetname attached. I never thought this would happen ...








Leixlip. And there's now a massive superpub spawling behind this building.

[Devin]

Sometimes just part of a building gets PVC'd for some reason, as here on the first floor on Aungier Street, Dublin.








Or here, on the top two floors on Upper Ormond Quay, facing the council's planning department across the river. It's likely that this one was inspired by the Ormond Hotel's huge wall of PVC a couple of doors down.

The Aungier Street and Ormond Quay buildings are both protected structures, so these window alterations were illegal. It's still important to make a complaint even if only part of a building has been PVC'd, as it is then easier for the rest of it to be done at a later date.

[GrahamH]

Enough! Enough!


Yes that Aungier St building is particularly horrible - pass it regularly mourning the loss of early divided plate windows: relatively rare in commercial buildings.
The Athy ones are even worse as the thing about small towns and villages is that the damage is so much more apparent; PVC has an appalling impact on such intimate streets and small unassuming buildings that rely almost entirely on their fenestration for architectural coherence.

Some more muck in Dundalk.

Before on Park Street:



...and after next door:




A lovely little Dundalk Georgian ravaged by plastic:




And a few meteres up the road, a typical picture in many Irish towns - render stripped, iron rainwater goods replaced with plastic, PVC windows of course, synthetic slates on the roof, and twee country kitchen protective steel window guards, again probably in place of iron originals:




And this type of thing is by no means confined to small domestic structures - some of Dublin's most prestigious heritage buildings are affected by nasty plastic secondary glazing, including Trinity's West Front and the Royal College of Surgeons below:

[Devin]

I'm for the concept of secondary glazing behind historic sash windows in principle. It would have been something worthy of mass promotion here 25 years ago - before the plague! But it's too late now.

It just looks terribly conspicuous in those two examples you've given. If it can be done discreetly, the internal - and to a lesser extent external - visual damage to the window and its casing is a small enough price to pay relative to complete loss of historc window fabric with PVC or poorly-detailed double-glazed sash replacement.

[GrahamH]

Yes, secondary glazing certainly can work quite well. A goodexample would be the former ICS building at the junction of Westmoreland and D'Olier Streets.



Inside it has impressive timber frames independent of the main windows that aren't that visible from outside.
Also they're not plastic
Indeed they're well carved as I remember, with attractive metal catches and little handles, all of which open inwards in casement style. They look so sensitive they might even be original.
I imagine their purpose is as much to do with blocking out the traffic noise as it is for insulation.

[KerryBog2]

Devin has showed no mercy! Posting those images to be seen first thing this morning was enough top make me want to puke my porridge. Came through Adare this afternoon, the damned stuff is even in the twee cottages there. Any hope that a GM company could mutate a terredo worm to do a job nationwide?

[Devin]

I often find that the Bord Failte-designated ‘Heritage Towns’ – such as Adare – have more plastic, more flower baskets and more mutilated period buildings than the non-‘Heritage’ ones.


This is funny (below), from the Midland Times. Sort of the opposite of what we’ve been illustrating here; the guy is showing buildings he worked on after insertion of plastic windows, replacement of natural slate with synthetic, removal of chimney stacks and stripping of protective render to “gehha back to the old stone”.

Says it all about Ireland, doesn’t it? – There are people advertising the wrecking of period buildings for a living.
.

[Devin]

ATHLONE
Some comparison pictures of Athlone from a couple of years ago, and then today. In terms of the older building stock in Irish towns, things are never better when you go back to a place after a few years. There’s always been demolition, deterioration, PVC-ing and bad new buildings.











Macken’s on Dublingate Street (on the Westmeath side of the town) has deteriorated and also has a demolition application pinned to it. This is a pattern: The few remaining ‘untouched’ traditional buildings in our towns or villages often have demolition notices pinned to them.









Across the road from Macken’s, a couple of gentle old buildings have had the nasty PVC and render-stripping makeover, complete with SUV passing by!









Over on the other (Roscommon) side of the town, things are even worse: Sean’s Bar – which claims to be the oldest pub in Ireland – has had historic sash windows replaced with PVC. Well they’re really doing all they can to maintain their sense of antiquity!









Nearby, a curious old building with a four-sided roof has been replaced by …....…… I don’t know what really.

[Devin]

.




On Connaught Street, another fine building (left), forming part of a classic Irish-town streetscape (right), also has a demolition application.









Two doors down from it, a chemists has been PVC’d since last time I was there.









A former Connaught Street gem, the Shamrock Bar, has fallen into dereliction.









While these buildings (top left & right) at the corner of Connaught Street and Patrick Street have been completely demolished.

I suppose the town council are too preoccupied with their grand Civic Centre and Town Centre plan on the more prosperous Westmeath side of the town to worry about what’s going on on the other side of the Shannon, hence a valuable surviving historic urban area like Connaught Street is going to the dogs.

[Devin]

Meanwhile, the bungalows on the outskirts of Athlone are hideous.






And don't forget the mock stone-clad wall and piers for the front.







On a positive note, the new Athlone IT buildings add interest to the road in from Dublin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was really uplifted by that piece on the Irish Times’ architecture page last week, about how a housing scheme - in Tipperary Town - could be designed to attract ‘middle earners’. I hope initiatives like this can be pushed forward promptly by local authorities, to stem this awful direction that all Irish towns are headed in, with deterioration of historic fabric in the core and a rush of bungalow building on the outskirts. Well done to all involved in that project - Carew Kelly architects, James Pike etc.

[PVC King]

The situation with the Shamrock bar is a disgrace such intact joinery destroyed it even has its original paint colour in the first image and beyond clamping a couple of the panels appears to be as authentic as one could expect; shame on those involved they have stuck two fingers up to the heritage of their own town.

Is this a protected structure?

I would be of the opinion that the CPO provisions in the 2000 act were designed to ensure that site assembly could not involve the wilful destruction of buildings such as this. Athlone UDC should serve a derelict sites notice on this property immediately.

[GrahamH]

That advertisment you posted above Devin is truly unbelievable - before and after indeed!
That single little square from a newspaper captures in a nutshell what is contained in nearly ten pages of material here, and what is happening across the country to our older building stock.
Living breathing heritage replaced with an idealised, synthetic version of what is deemed to be 'traditional'.
This in particular is the sickest example yet come across:




I noted this exact phenomenon you mention of derelict buildings in towns and villages in Ballymore Eustace recently. The townland surrounding the village of course coming down with new development (though seemingly more controlled than other parts of the country), while there's about six derelict 19th century houses and buildings coming into the village and in the village itself. The largest of which, a two storey house with extensive frontage near the village centre (about the size of the two buildings above), is proposed to be demolished and replaced with a humdrum two storey development, to include a medical/doctor's surgery.
No doubt 'what about the children' tactics are being thrown about as we speak.

There is way too much focus in the media on getting people back into Dublin city to live. Getting developers to build family units in the capital is bad enough, but in regional towns and villages it's almost non-existant - especially villages. This should be the real focus of environmental and planning journalism. It's a massive problem. Dublin is just constantly used as a token example, which in itself is damaging as it reinforces the widespread perception that Dublin is the only urban area in Ireland - everywhere else is just 'the countryside', even with major regional towns and villages.

And so these places are left to crumble as the estates and one-offs capture new territory elsewhere. The doughnut effect could not be more apt a description for what is happen in regional urban Ireland, only the part that is most often forgotton about, the hole, is particularly relevant to many Irish urban centres. There's nothing in the middle.

[kite]

[quote="Thomond Park"]The situation with the Shamrock bar is a disgrace such intact joinery destroyed it even has its original paint colour in the first image and beyond clamping a couple of the panels appears to be as authentic as one could expect]


The building is a disgrace as are the Local Authority who are flouting the Derelict Site Act.1990

3—In this section "derelict site" means any land (in this section derelict site. referred to as "the land in question") which detracts, or is likely to detract, to a material degree from the amenity, character or appearance of land in the neighbourhood of the land in question because of— ..........

10.—It shall be the duty of a local authority to take all reasonable steps (including the exercise of any appropriate statutory powers) to ensure that any land situate in their functional area does not become or continue to be a derelict site.

[A Palladio]

[ATTACH]2382[/ATTACH]There's nothing wrong with PVC windows in they're in a nice house like this one.

[PVC King]

A Palladian that image is a poor advert for PVC and design in general

you should compare it with this http://www.knightfrank.co.uk/propertyassets/WS1021135/Digi-flash/index.html

if you want a dolls house that is.

[anto]

The local authority should be policing this!

ATHLONE
Some comparison pictures of Athlone from a couple of years ago, and then today. In terms of the older building stock in Irish towns, things are never better when you go back to a place after a few years. There’s always been demolition, deterioration, PVC-ing and bad new buildings.











Macken’s on Dublingate Street (on the Westmeath side of the town) has deteriorated and also has a demolition application pinned to it. This is a pattern: The few remaining ‘untouched’ traditional buildings in our towns or villages often have demolition notices pinned to them.









Across the road from Macken’s, a couple of gentle old buildings have had the nasty PVC and render-stripping makeover, complete with SUV passing by!









Over on the other (Roscommon) side of the town, things are even worse: Sean’s Bar – which claims to be the oldest pub in Ireland – has had historic sash windows replaced with PVC. Well they’re really doing all they can to maintain their sense of antiquity!









Nearby, a curious old building with a four-sided roof has been replaced by …....…… I don’t know what really.

[publicrealm]

Elegant AND practical. 53 Upper Richmond Street, Dublin. AFAIK both a Protected Structure and in a Conservation Area.

Bate that?

[ATTACH]2406[/ATTACH]

[GrahamH]

Oh God - you know when it's time to get out more (or should that be stay in?) when you recognise a terrace by a single window
Though this house's replacement fenestration is amongst the very worst in the city, truly appalling - pass it regularly in horror.
Saying that, it's still better than the terrible repro sashes elsewhere on this street; at least with this house there is the potential for change. These frames are Hawkins House, while clunky repros are the Ellis Quays of the window world.

[StephenC]

Amazingly here in Germany there seem to be no such scruples about installing uPVC windows in all building regardless of their age or conservation value. The few exceptions are prestige buildings such as the Rathus. PVC windows are the norm, although they never get to the ridiculous stage as in the pic above.

[Devin]

You do see it alright in some parts of the continent. I've never been anywhere where it's been 'the norm' though.

I was aghast to come across this in La Rochelle in France: the photo is a bit muddy, but the window on the left, below has white PVC external shutters! All I could think was: just as well we don't have external shutters on our old buildings in Ireland!!!

Apart from that though, La Rochelle is a gorgeous historic town with everything as it should be.

[GrahamH]

Perversely I'm glad to see we're not alone in this phenomenon, though I doubt the Continent has anything near the levels of disaster experienced in Ireland. Not even the UK is as bad (albeit not by much!).

Interesting you mention prestige buildings there Stephen - those notorious PVC sashes are still creeping around the main facade of Leinster House, after how many years now? Similarly the massive white PVC frame inserted into the Venetian window of the National Museum is also still there with no sign of movement - it looks horrendous, and recently on display to the nation for an hour on a recent news bulletin broadcast from the location.
One would have thought it a top priority of the OPW to get rid as soon as possible. Given they went all out with PVC instead of a temporary boarding up suggests it's here for the long haul...

[Devin]

Similarly the massive white PVC frame inserted into the Venetian window of the National Museum is also still there with no sign of movement - it looks horrendous

i don't know that one - sounds awful. Would be worth sticling a pic up here ...........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do most people know Athenry? I was only there for the first time (in memory) recently. It’s a ‘Heritage Town’, as you are unambiguously reminded on the way in. But from Athenry it can be deduced that the word ‘Heritage’ in Ireland means castles, churches, friaries and other stone-ruiny bits & bobs (as there is lots of that there), but does not extend to the predominantly 18th & 19th century buildings that form the streets of our towns, because almost every building in this town has been mucked up – PVC and all the usual – to a really shocking extent. A shame, because it has an attractive narrow medieval street-plan in the centre.






There’s a maniac at large in Athenry, as this type of pointing is on a few different buildings.
(Love the 'native' shutters too)








Finally, I came across a group of buildings in the centre which, though vacant, hadn’t been messed around with, still having slate roofs, sash windows, old panelled doors etc.





Then looking a little closer, there’s a planning application for demolition of the whole group …. sooo unsurprising.

[corkdood]

Without going off the subject too much I am looking at a property at present which has old sash windows that are in a bad state of repair. If I were to replace these with new sash windows would planning permission be required?
Also if I were to replace these with pvc (and I know a lot of people won't lik that idea) is planning permission required to do that?
The house is a semi in an old estate. As far as I can see most of the other houses still have their original sash windows.

[PVC King]

There are two implications in this

Firstly what the planning situation is and if the property is not either listed or situated in an architectural conservation area then planning consent would not be required at all.

the general consideration of is regulated by

57.—(1) Notwithstanding section 4(1)(h), the carrying out of works to a protected structure, or a proposed protected structure, shall be exempted development only if those works would not materially affect the character of—

(a) the structure, or

(b) any element of the structure which contributes to its special architectural, historical, archaeological, artistic, cultural, scientific, social or technical interest.

(2) An owner or occupier of a protected structure may make a written request to the planning authority, within whose functional area that structure is situated, to issue a declaration as to the type of works which it considers would or would not materially affect the character of the structure or of any element, referred to in subsection (1)(b), of that structure.

(3) Within 12 weeks after receiving a request under subsection (2), or within such other period as may be prescribed, a planning authority shall issue a declaration under this section to the person who made the request.

(4) Before issuing a declaration under this section, a planning authority shall have regard to—

(a) any guidelines issued under section 52, and

(b) any recommendations made to the authority under section 53.

(5) If the declaration relates to a protected structure that is regularly used as a place of public worship, the planning authority

(a) in addition to having regard to the guidelines and recommendations referred to in subsection (4), shall respect liturgical requirements, and

(b) for the purpose of ascertaining those requirements shall—

(i) comply with any guidelines concerning consultation which may be issued by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, or
(ii) if no such guidelines are issued, consult with such person or body as the planning authority considers appropriate.
(6) When considering an application for permission for the development of land under section 34 which—

(a) relates to the interior of a protected structure, and

(b) is regularly used as a place of public worship,

the planning authority, and the Board on appeal, shall, in addition to any other requirements of the Act, respect liturgical requirements.

(7) A planning authority may at any time review a declaration issued under this section but the review shall not affect any works carried out in reliance on the declaration prior to the review.

(8) A planning authority shall cause—

(a) the details of any declaration issued by that authority under this section to be entered on the register kept by the authority under section 7, and

(b) a copy of the declaration to be made available for inspection by members of the public during office hours, at the office of the authority, following the issue of the declaration.

(9) A declaration under this section shall not prejudice the application of section 5 to any question that arises as to what, in a particular case, is or is not exempted development.

(10) (a) For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that a planning authority or the Board on appeal—

(i) in considering any application for permission in relation to a protected structure, shall have regard to the protected status of the structure, or
(ii) in considering any application for permission in relation to a proposed protected structure, shall have regard to the fact that it is proposed to add the structure to a record of protected structures.
(b) A planning authority, or the Board on appeal, shall not grant permission for the demolition of a protected structure or proposed protected structure, save in exceptional circumstances.

Secondly you should consider the value added or subtracted by which windows you fit and my feeling on this is that if you think you will be in the house for 10 - 12 years you should consider how PVC will look at that time.

Ventrolla and many others supply no obligation quotes on restoration but I would weigh up all options.

[GrahamH]

To be honest, modern PVC will probably be in fine condition in 10, 20, even 30 years time corkdood - nobody really knows at this point how long the newer, sturdier stuff lasts that is now available. Certainly the PVC of the 1980s and early 90s barely had a life of more than ten years in terms of decorative and even build condition, but the newer forms available now certainly have a longer life.

However, whatever about structural integrity, at the end of the day PVC is for the most part (not always) a ghastly material, and should never in a million years be used in older buildings in particular.

I imagine you live in one of Cork’s nice 1940s housing estates, built at a time when metal was in short supply and timber sashes were reintroduced as a window format. The fact that the majority of the estate still has their original windows is truly remarkable in dump-it ditch-it modern Ireland - this speaks volumes not only about how long timber as a material lasts, but also informs as to the course of action you should take, which is to restore them.

Without getting heavy about it, you do have a certain responsibility corkdood in what you do with these windows from the perspective of setting a trend for your estate! Be under no illusions: your installation of PVC or similar will help contribute to a disastrous ripple effect that happens on every residential road in Ireland, and especially in housing estates where window formats are uniform. Everyone copies each other in what they do when their windows need refurbishment - so you could either help foster a culture of conservation on your road with a decent restoration job, or simply encourage everyone to ditch their nice original sashes in favour of flat, lifeless, cheap rubbish that’ll last for half as long as what the timber has done thus far. Not only that, the uniformity of your estate will equally be destroyed, with a mish-mash of window materials, styles and colours being introduced across the board. All it takes is a couple of properties to go in a certain direction, and plastic spreads like wildfire from house to house.

Of course it’s entirely up to you what you want to do – just opinions being offered . PVC sashes are often touted as a good compromise – again I’d argue they’re not. They still stand out like a sore thumb, have terrible detailing up close (even from a distance with most), and can never replicate exactly the former windows and/or the surviving windows of neighbouring houses. Their life is equally poor if not worse than conventional PVC frames due to the amount of wear and tear they endure with substantial, heavy moving parts.

PVC has also no exclusive hold over double-glazing either as is often touted – your timber sashes can easily be double glazed, can be draught-proofed, can have additional security features added, and can be fully restored to perfect condition by any able joiner, no problem whatsoever.

I see you have also posted on another forum (linked on another thread here). It is suggested there that you have to constantly maintain timber – not so. Every four years or so is average for painting – you can even leave it longer on sheltered elevations. It is also suggested that PVC should be coated every 4-5 years after its initial lifespan – admittedly not really true for better quality PVC, but if you do get cheap ones well then painting them is the same as painting timber, only now you’re maintaining cheap poorly designed muck instead of a natural tailor-made product! Hmmmm – I wonder….

The planning issues are largely as outlined above, generally no need for permission if not protected or in an ACA – though your noting of most houses still having their original windows perhaps suggests a lease stipulation if the estate is managed by the Corporation (assuming it’s Cork!). Is your house a Corpo or former Corpo house?


That 'pointing' is so bad it's funny Devin, though certainly not the proposed demolitions. One doesn't know whether to be more exercised over the demolition of such stock or the erection of the inevitable dross that'll replace them.