Dun Laoghaire Library Competition

We have a winner!

I’d be interested in hearing what you think.

I’ve blogged it with a few more pix on http://www.CuffeStreet.Blogspot.com

All the best,

Ciarán Cuffe

I’m not sure I’d be too thrilled with that…:(

In that picture above it looks really out of place, as it sits between a church and the Royal Marine hotel which are both old buildings , yet it is completely new.

ugly, grey concrete expanses and the redbrick bit looks like cinema in coolock,

no doubt it will become mired in the nonsense that is development in DLR. Hate to be a pessimist but something this radical will more than likely go the way of everything in this County a la Cherrywood, Sandyford, Carlisle Pier, the Golf Club lands, and the baths. Come back to this thread in 5 years when all the appeals, judicial reviews, new competitions, a local area plan, etc etc have all been demanded and finally a sod is turned!!!

btw Thanks Ciaran for the update

Now if you could only get the Monkstown Ring Road scrapped again, you’d have me vote again in 2012, (or 2008/9/10 for that matter. After all, it’s not the only “burning” issue these days on the southern shores of the bay:))

What a pity, yet another daft idea that looks like an old PC monitor! I think it is a slab-sided POS. The line drawing montage on CC’s blog site is specious as it confuses scale – the proposed library is taller than the Royal Marine in the first photo yet it is smaller in the drawing and the positioning of the piers / harbour is also misleading. The views to the west, over the city and into the setting sun from that site are spectacular, yet what is being proposed is …………a concrete wall.

can we see the other entries???

The brief was very specific but did it really make the project that big???

how much of the floor space was underground?

there’s another shot to add to the confusion. Couldn’t paste in the pic directly

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/PressReleases/CentralLibraryHQ.htm

In the first image above, it looks a bit like a clay working model for the Norman Foster U2 tower.

Here’s the image from alonso’s last post:

It doesn’t appear to sit well in the townscape at all judging from the first picture, but from the second one it looks quite promising. Very Belfield.

Any pics of the other entrants?

EDIT: If anyone is having trouble with CC’s blog link above, try this: http://cuffestreet.blogspot.com/

😮 Ghastly looking thing. Another thumbs down from me.

Very poor

Have to agree it loooks appalling. Like something from the 1960s.

It’s hard to say from the illustrations – granted it looks overly bulky from the waterfront, but the elevation shown on the DLR site doesn’t look at all bad to me. I’d like to see more before I judge.

I live out that way and dont remember reading about this one in the local papers, echo comments above looks poor, how did this make it through when the pier still cannot be built!

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

It’s hard to say from the illustrations – granted it looks overly bulky from the waterfront, but the elevation shown on the DLR site doesn’t look at all bad to me. I’d like to see more before I judge.

I think DLR elevation is very 1970s monolithic and that’s not a compliment given the building is meant to be contemporary.
I’d prefer something like:
http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.betterpublicbuildings.gov.uk/assets/images/finalists_2003/bournemouth/bournemouth_large_1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.betterpublicbuildings.gov.uk/finalists/2003/bournemouth/&h=360&w=500&sz=53&hl=en&start=19&um=1&tbnid=b-u2xXz0T4DrWM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcontemporary%2Blibrary%2Bdesign%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.inhabitat.com/images/dome_exterior.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.inhabitat.com/2006/02/27/fosters-green-berlin-library/&h=359&w=537&sz=66&hl=en&start=110&um=1&tbnid=nLb1iJZq8DMOZM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcontemporary%2Blibrary%2Bdesign%26start%3D100%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
Change the colours on this and it could be spectacular albeit there would be lengthy planning delays obviously!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/03/future_systems.php
Erecting just another box just has to stop, the council went conservative on Carlisle Pier and looked what happened there. Nothing.

You got to look past any 60s design cues – it’s too easy to dismiss a building because it looks 60s. There is some fine architecture worldwide from the 60s, and here in Ireland too.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

You got to look past any 60s design cues – it’s too easy to dismiss a building because it looks 60s. There is some fine architecture worldwide from the 60s, and here in Ireland too.

Which is pretty much what I meant by
@ctesiphon wrote:

from the second one it looks quite promising. Very Belfield.

Honestly, I mean it as a compliment.

Though I’m aware I’m in a small enough minority…

ctesiphon, on Belfield, although we’re slightly off topic (again!), my own two cents is that some of the individual buildings are fine, and even attractive. It’s just that the vast spaces, isolation of the blocks, and the overbearing unhuman scale and nature of the environment which turns people off – back on topic – Therefore this building in the pic you pasted in from the DLR press release looks quite well, and may work. So you may be in a minority, but it’s not that small, when individual buildings are examined rather than the campus as a whole.

Well I am having trouble matching the side view with the view from the sea, but the side view looks very handsome to me, very library, you look at it and you think library.

I’m not sure how to think about that. I’m not sure what springs to mind when I think “library” at all.But to me it looks as if it could be literally anything at all.
Belfield….I’m not a fan of Belfield at all, but even if its (I’ll forego the abuse..for a change :rolleyes: ) structures-not all of them bad, to be fair-had a character of their own, it looked best there. Dun Laoghaire, of all places, could do with a bit of sensitivity and fitting-in for a change, after the boorish shopping centre,those grim, austere flats and that theatre that looks like a pre-fabricated factory.

@notjim wrote:

Well I am having trouble matching the side view with the view from the sea, but the side view looks very handsome to me, very library, you look at it and you think library.

I find it hard to reconcile the two also … I’d prefer if the sea ward facade was less obtrusive, a simple proportionate frame around an uninterrupted glazed facade would be more elegant imo.

@notjim wrote:

Well I am having trouble matching the side view with the view from the sea, but the side view looks very handsome to me, very library, you look at it and you think library.

That’s because the pictures do not correlate and mislead, as does the image posted by ctesiphon; the first view on CCs site shows the building facing N. East, out over Scotsman’s Bay, clearly at an obtuse angle to the Royal Marine. However, the plan has it facing the gap between the Lifeboat Station and the National YC – almost a right angle.
“Very library” – do you mean it looks like a book-end?
K.

Awful from the first image – as said before it has a suburban UCI quality and that’s not a good thing. I reckon it’ll look as dated as that other piece of modern architecture The Dun Laoghaire Shopping Centre.

Second rendering looks better but the building looks out of place both with the Victorian context (Mariner’s Church & Royal Marine Hotel) and the modern buildings (Pavillions and DLRCC)

Overall a poor effort, particularly when you compare it to say the new library in TCD.

For some reason the second image is reminding me a lot of Scharoun’s Berlin Staatsbibliothek – which is famed for being ugly as sin externally but containing some of the most amazing internal spaces in modern architecture. I dont think the proposed DunLaoghaire library is quite that ugly externally, although the massive planes of grey stone will be very overbearing. It strikes me that it could contain some wonderful spaces though…

Who’s responsible for this design?

Carr Cotter Naessens Profile:
Carr Cotter Naessens includes David Naessens and Louise Cotter who have been practicing in Cork since 2001. Seamus Carr manages the Limerick office. All graduates of UCD they previously worked in London on a range of prestigious cultural projects before establishing a varied portfolio of work in Ireland, ranging from a tiny coffee dock in Cork Court House to a 12 million euro urban development in Midleton. They received 2 AAI awards and have been published and exhibited widely. Their building in 15 Henry St, Limerick was the recipient of an RIAI Award for best commercial building 2007. Other projects include the Solas Building for Nursing and Healthcare studies, Institute of Technology Tralee, the conservation and development master plan for the historic South Presentation convent in Cork city, Howleys Quay and Bishopsgate in Limerick.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/PressReleases/CentralLibraryHQ.htm

you can check out some new images of the winner and the six shortlisted finalists here http://www.riai.ie/index.html?id=7275

Also on the winner’s website http://www.ccnarchitects.net/index.php?pageID=47#

It’s a little hard to make out, but Shay Cleary’s proposal looks pretty fresh

CCNs design definitely not one of the best

Added a section to UnBuilt Ireland on this and are inviting submissions
http://ireland.archiseek.com/unbuilt_ireland/dublin/dlr_library/index.html

such an awkard narrow site

@lostexpectation wrote:

such an awkard narrow site

the site is neither. it doesn’t excuse some of the bland designs submitted, or the selection of the winning entry.

Wow..why was the most visually un-appealing and..well..boring of the shortlisted entries chosen? So grey! Virtually any other choice would have resulted in a landmark building for Dún Laoghaire. The winning entry automatically reminds me of the steps in front of the church in the town for some reason..expect to see drunks populating the steps outside the library in years to come!

Personally I think Arkithemas design was the best. I feel it would be quite an Iconic building and less obtrusive than the CCN building. It seems to have been built partly underground. CCNs building just carries on a tradition of big bulky buildings between the town and the harbour that enforce a seperation between the two.

I’m a new bogger visiting from Scotland, but with an interest in Irish architecture; I’m amazed at some of the responses to the CCN proposal. It has a real civic presence and offers some interesting public spaces (you cannot design open spaces on the basis that ‘drunks’ might abuse them). Most of the other entries were the usual self-indulgent rubbish that might look good in CAD but which everyone would grow to love to hate if built. Buildings should be ‘obtrusive’ – the current fashion for buildings cowering into the landscape just reeks of an inability to design well. However, context is everything and the CCN building is fine when viewed as part of the DL skyline.

Meddlesome Scots. (mutter mutter mutter) :rolleyes:

Aah no, I jest. Welcome.

I still think it’s too early to judge this building, particularly as I haven’t seen other images, but I do agree with you concerning ‘buildings cowering into the landscape’- I’ve made the point before regarding the work of “heneghan.peng”. Although, in two cases at least, there was a good reason for it – pyramids scheme in Egypt and Giant’s Causeway in NI – it does seem to represent the tip of the iceberg of a new trend.

I sometimes suspect that it’s all of a piece with the disappearance of the moustache on contemporary man, the bagginess of modern footballers’ shorts, etc. In other words, we’re in the grip of a new conservatism where daring and bravery have been supplanted by fear and shame.

[/bait]

@johnglas wrote:

I’m a new bogger visiting from Scotland, but with an interest in Irish architecture; I’m amazed at some of the responses to the CCN proposal. It has a real civic presence and offers some interesting public spaces (you cannot design open spaces on the basis that ‘drunks’ might abuse them). Most of the other entries were the usual self-indulgent rubbish that might look good in CAD but which everyone would grow to love to hate if built. Buildings should be ‘obtrusive’ – the current fashion for buildings cowering into the landscape just reeks of an inability to design well. However, context is everything and the CCN building is fine when viewed as part of the DL skyline.

I don’t think it’s acceptable to ignore how these public spaces will be used in the future. Dún Laoghaire, despite the ongoing improvements/rejuvenation has undesirable elements. There are big problems with anti-social behaviour in the town; the grounds of the church as stated are an example where a ‘public space’ is almost anything but..drunks and rough teenagers use the area but no-one else.

I can only presume the Architects know about the problems that exist in Dún Laoghaire, and should have put this into consideration. Now, obviously I’m not saying surround the perimeter with barbed wire, but from knowing the activities of the town and seeing the layout of the chosen development, the first image that sprung to mind was of how the public spaces could (will) become yet another no-go area for the majority of pedestrians.

Maybe it’s just me. I just don’t see these spaces as being a positive feature of the development. Hopefully I’ll be proven wrong in times to come!

My point was that if you design public spaces with ‘drunks’ (how condescending) in mind you will get into a ‘barbed-wire’ complex and become too restrictive. In these islands we need to rediscover the urban; we are too hooked on some mythical rural idyll. ‘Drunks’ are part of city life; if they are anti-social, get the polis (that’s how we say it in Scotland) to deal with them, or create an atmosphere where anti-social behavour like that is unacceptable. CCN are to be commended for designing spaces to be used by the public; not the ‘left-over space’ so beloved of road engineers and corporate office architects. If DL is such an anti-social hell-hole, deal with it.

Doesn’t excuse the fact that the view from the sea is dreadful

Must say I’m suprised at the reactions to this as well. I think of all the entries the CCN one was the best. The others seemed faddish and lacked any real civic character. The CCN one seems to be quite buildable and I think could end up a very nice realised project.

Re the public space one cant approach the public realm with an attitude of negativity. If you design a space with principles of good urban design in mind it will be frequently used, well trafficked, overlooked and will become an integral part of a network of urban space in the vicinity rather than a piece of a private site. I’m not familiar with the site but this space appears to be a route towards the coast and hopefully will be activated and monitored enough to avoid becoming a negative space in the town.

I agree that the view from the sea isn’t great but I think this may be down to poor renders as well.

Overall I think it looks interesting.

Reddy,
I see you admit that you are not familiar with the site; but, must familiarity with the site/location not be a prerequisite before you comment on the suitability of a design? Integration (not necessarily harmony) with the landscape/streetscape is in my view a very important aspect of any design. The pseudo-French mini- pavilion on Burlington Rd. might look acceptable set in a few acres of parkland, but crammed in between redbricks in D4 it looks incongruous and daft. Same as the CCN design, out of harmony with its neighbours and jarring on the streetscape. It does not take advantage of the best aspects of the site, it is focussed on the North and obliterates some lovely views to/from the West. From the front it is a cheap representation of the top of the Citicorp Tower in Midtown Manhattan.

As for being frequently used or well trafficked, it is both, by users and traffickers. That area of DL is dead; it is not and will not be a through-way because it goes nowhere (well, it leads to the Metals and there are a couple of ugly, narrow foot bridges over the railway onto the seafront. I fail to see how it could be “reclaimed”and become an integral part of a network of urban space. Nearby there is a rat and weed-infested, overgrown, old Admiralty reservoir which must by now be worth an archaeological investigation (of the layers below the present ones of beer cans, syringes, trolleys, etc.) The park (Moran’s Park) is equally dead, the greater part is fenced off and, in summer use only, as a lawnbowling green .During the day the “park” is peopled by skangers, either drunk or stoned or both.; at night, well, don’t go there. The cops are happy enough to maintain the status quo, it keeps the gougers off the main street.
DLRCC will not maintain its open spaces, it never has. Look at the state of Killiney, Dillons and Sorrento Parks or the Vico Fields; look at the area in front of the church at the top of Marine Road.
Someone with CAD would do us a favour by showing what that design is really like, as I and others have pointed out that the representations already shown are incorrect and misleadingly out of scale.
KB

KB,
From the sounds of you post this site is an irretrievable urban wasteland that none of the designs could possibly have affected in any positive way. A competition is an aspirational thing. if we had this kind of negative attitude to place making it’d be the death of public space in our cities.

I wasnt judging the scheme from the drawings which are competition images and obviously purely conceptual.

The model however gives an accurate impression of the space the building will create. Yes while I dont know the site this is absolutely not a reason to not voice my opinion on a design. I wouldnt dream of designing something without intimate knowledge of a site but I like the massing of the building in its immediate context and I like the dynamic stepped space created beside the library. The building is located on the North to create a south facing space capturing sunlight. The building profile is kept low at one ned to respond to the context of smaller houses at the top of the site.

Again like I said before the rendering from the pier/sea view is useless as it strikes me as very inaccurate. Also try to imagine this as a realised project. It has the potential to be very well made and a civic addition to the town.

The render from the west pier looks completely over scaled ad innaccurate. It looks much too tall. I think the public spaces are clear and legible. The plaza needs a large piece of public art. The narrow, elongated foot print of the building reminds me of the hull of a ship. I think the simple form of the building will sit into this site veery well.

On a sunny saturday/sunday afternoon you’ll find a good congreagtion of people sitting down at the plaza outside the ferry terminal. No riff raff ruining it for everyone. Quite pleasant.

Reddy,
You miss my points. I am not opposed to competitions, I am all in favour of open spaces and better circulation for traffic (wheeled and on foot.) However, one cannot just dump an open space in an urban environment and just leave it there, it has to be planned, managed, cared for and policed. DLRCC has a record of destroying localities with their crap notions and laziness, hence my comments yesterday on the manner in which they manage other open spaces.
Everyone seems to agree that the winning drawings/representations are inaccurate and misleading. It is not possible to see the negative impact this will have on the seafront & landscape without looking at it in its correct context.The site is sloped, running from South to North, rather like a gradual embankment running down to the sea. Along the coast there is a busy road, now a busy artery because part of Dun Laoghaire main street is pedestrianized; just inside and parallel with the road is the DART railway line, in a deep “cut.” Inside that are “The Metals,” a pedestrian / cycle path, dating to the early 1800’s and initially used to bring granite from Dalkey Quarry to the harbour. Inside that is a series of unlinked open spaces, including the site in question on the eastern extremity. On the southern side, at the top of the slope, there are terraces of old houses and the Royal Marine hotel, all of which form a pleasant line (height) and a mixture of styles, punctuated by an occasional spire. On the western end the old pavilion cinema has been replaced by a shopping centre/apartments/car park complex which fronts onto Marine road and has its ass to the open space, with no integration and exacerbated by the entrance to the car park. The mass of the proposed library is equally heavy and creates more frontiers.

In my view Imagen got it right with their proposal and comments on the site – see:
http://ireland.archiseek.com/unbuilt_ireland/dublin/dlr_library/imagen/index.html

What really needs to happen to the space is a mixture of Imagen’s design (or similar) and to roof over the railway line to create a wider linear space along the seafront with a great number of connections to the front.

Landarch – the open space you describe is under the control of the Harbour Company and is policed by the Harbour Police. The gougers do not go there for many reasons, the latter being one of them. Usually it is so windy there it puts most people off.
Kb
PS When I googled to find our about Imagen, their website is so artistic it does not work (unless it is so minimalist that they have just one page?

KB, thank you for the kind comments in relation to our proposal (Imagen). Apologies for our website or lack there of, its merely a page holder at the moment however there is a website in the pipeline and we hope to have it on-line shortly.

Dave

A shadow study should be done on the project especially given the fact that Ireland ranks in the top bracket for least sunny days in the EU. Given its height, it is very likely that the entirety of the park will lie predominantly in shadow a majority of the time. The location of the building is fine but steps should be taken to lower its height (iconic landmark object value) in favor of the spaces around itself that it could affect adversely. Once lowered by maybe 2 floors, the park will more likely be a hub of activity than a space of shadow. The remaining organizational strategies behind the scheme in its relation to the park seem fine.

Plans for super library meets opposition
http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/2109/55/

do different Councils request different dates and times for shadow studies?

funnily enough, yeah..i heard of one dublin council requesting a shadow study on a house extension for 6pm on December 21st!….

What did he submit? . . . . an A4 sheet of black paper!

I actually thought the renders of the proposed Library looked quite good. They suggested an urban feel in keeping with Dun Laoghaire town centre, but, defered as much as possible to the park.

Incidentally, has anybody ever heard of anything Boyd Barrett was in favour of??….apart from nationalisation?;)

C

election.

@alonso wrote:

election.

do you like the library alonso?

A new state-of-the -art library has been given the go ahead in Dun Laoghaire.

It will include a central library, a cultural centre, a children’s library, a teenager’s library, an art gallery, a coffee shop and meeting rooms.

The €35m development in Moran Park, which is beside Dun Laoghaire Dart station, will also include a multi-purpose room to seat 100 people and an underground car park with 100 spaces.

It’s even uglier than I thought it would be. :sick:

I quite like it, even if it does have that university campus building look about it.

In January 2008^^^ I wrote
……..What really needs to happen to the space is ……….and to roof over the railway line to create a wider linear space along the seafront with a great number of connections to the front.

………… Someone with CAD would do us a favour by showing what that design is really like, as I and others have pointed out that the representations already shown are incorrect and misleadingly out of scale.

I do like the idea of covering the railway cutting, it should be as a public space, and not built on.

although we’re slightly off topic (again!), my own two cents is that some of the individual buildings are fine, and even attractive. It’s just that the vast spaces, isolation of the blocks,

________
NOOR