Irishtown

Great post gunter and thanks for the insight. I’ve been surprised over the years that the pace of regeneration/gentrification ,call it what you will, hasn’t consumed the working class areas of D4. Have always attributed it to De flats in the neighbourhood ( which I have heard the reidents are queing up to buy out and cash in on when the corpo eventually agree on their sale to the tenants) and what I have always known as ‘legoland’- i.e. the 1980s 3 storey coprpo houses that dominate the environs.. As a general aside I think the fabric of Dublin’s urban villages survives to an extent unappreciated by most Dubliners-they just require a bit of TLC. My favourite gem that requires a bit of polishing being Coolock village. I’ sure more design conscious posters n here will disagree with this generalisation – I really mean it in an atmosphere concept…

@tommyt wrote:

As a general aside I think the fabric of Dublin’s urban villages survives to an extent unappreciated by most Dubliners-they just require a bit of TLC.

I have a vague recollection that ‘seeing Dublin as a network of Urban Villages’ was the title of an essay by none other than Dick Gleeson (he who is now top of the tree in the Planning Dept) as an entry in an essay competition on the theme of ‘How would you Define Dublin’, maybe around the time of the Dublin Millenium (1988?), sponcered by Dublin Corporation, or The Evening Hearald or somebody.

My memory could be faulty on this, but I think the bold Dick got second place.

The contents of that essay could make interesting reading (at an oral hearing)!

Apart from the man himself, presuming he’s not a reader of these pages, who would be able to put their hands on a copy of something like that?

Just on tomyt’s reference to ‘Legoland’, (which is what everyone called it). The scheme was a Dublin Corporation social housing development (I don’t know was it designed in-house or not) and it got some stick at the time which focused on the painted render finish and the colour scheme, hence the nickname. There were other reasons two; people had to get used to three storey house types and there was some grumbling about not being able to get furniture up the stairs, as there was with the Pearse Street scheme from about the same time (I think early ’80s is about right).

Some of the furniture accusations would have been better directed at Bargaintown and Flynns etc who’s furniture made up, in chipboard and velour, what they lacked in ergonomic design. There were other issues as well, such as the fact that the scheme was erected on a land-fill dump and I remember one newspaper story of a family having to throw all their windows open in mid winter because there was some underground combustion process taking place and the heat was coming up through the floor slab.

Leaving all of that aside, the scheme was rather well designed, in an unpretentous way, with good variety in the house types and a reasonable attempt at layout. It also had some good street names like Bremen Road although there might be a couple of Pine Groves too. After a shaky start, it all seems to have bedded in very well, as I think these photographs show. The corner shop never worked, for some reason, it always had a shutter half down.

It would be interesting to compare ‘Legoland’ with what would be done today. Densification targets will probably never allow housing schemes like this again.

Most interesting buildings earlier there, gunter.

Yes, Legoland is a scheme that’s survived very well. Interestingly it’s kept its coherence precisely because people were given the opportunity – even required – to express individuality. Perhaps that’s the only way to keep matters orderly in an Irish residential context – deliberately design in disorder…

Like picking out the Georgian on one of the squares you’d most like to live in, I always liked the dark green one near the main road. Probably lemon now.

good photos Gunter and yes I vaguely remember similar stories of landfill/methane gas related incidents from 2 acquaintances who grew up around there (who rather charmingly refer to themselves as eastsiders!). The newer development at the Pigeonhouse roundabout got quite a bit of media attention a while back for being the first proper grass roots housing coop development in the state but I’m sure you’re wide to th.at already An interesting area for sure and one that will see many changes as the DDDA start their foray into speculative development-mmm all that open space, sure they will pile ’em high on the glass bottles site …

As a near local, I’m delighted to see the area get this much attention in our own little media. Another important element of Irishtown is the triad of boozers – The Beach, Clarkes, Gleeson/Vintage inn. the latter two’s back doors seperated by one of the laneways mentioned earlier. From what I can gather, Gleesons is the GS Station in the OS Map, Clarke’s is no 82, and the Beach is photographed and identified by Gunter. Also there;s a brand new Garda Station almost complete on the conrner of Bath avenue and Irishtown/Tritonville.

As for Legoland, there’s a Jenny’s hair Salon on the periphery of the estate which I;ve never seen open but the corner shop opposite the IGB seems to be. Funny thing about Irishtown has always been it’s lack of a real sense of place – IGB and Legoland are both Ringsend, where I live is Sandymount and is even the Garda station Ringsend?

Other notable but useless facts are the connections to soccer. Lawless’ newsagents on Irishtown road is owned by the legendary Gino Lawless of Bohs fame and Ireland’s greatests club Shamrock Rovers were born on a street called Shamrock Avenue which is somewhere in the vicinity of Irishtown but seems to have disappeared

Legoland in Ringsend was designed by Burke-Kennedy Doyle + Partners and received a commendation from the RIAI in the Silver Medal for Housing awarded for the period 1982-84. I think I heard that Ruairi Quinn played a large part in its design while he was still at BKD.

I’d heard that too, trace. Was it mentioned in that Nation Building tv series, maybe?

The other story I heard about the estate was that, at the time houses were being allocated, those on the waiting list with physical disabilities were given priority (odd, given the three storey arrangement, come to think of it). However, once they’d received the houses, some people who had previously been disabled suddenly ‘lost’ their disability (if they ever had one…), hence the estate’s nickname of ‘Lourdes’. 😀

I hadn’t heard of the Ruairi Quinn involvement, I guess when you’re out of the loop, you’re out of the loop.

I’m surprised that, as a local resident and TD, he wouldn’t have been flogging it at election time.
I don’t want to find out now that there are politicians of modesty and principle.

Coming back for a minute to that planning application to demolish 11 – 13 Bath Street (Reg. no. 3285/08, lodged 19th June) I just want to make the point that the proposal looks innocuous (two storey, none of the usual over-development) but it still has to be stopped. These are two of the oldest house on the street (whether further research would reveal original attic stories or not) and if you demolish them and replace them with a pale immitation, no amount of hanging baskets are going to get your character back.

Architect’s drawings of the proposed replacement two houses.

You just have to look across the street to see how a seemingly innocuous development can critically damage the character of a place. This little terrace was built about seven or eight years ago, partially on the site of a blocky 1930s house, which itself had been built with little concern for context. The new terrace repeats the mistake of it’s predecessor by presenting a rough rear aspect and blank gable wall to Bath Street, at the top of the phantom triangular ‘market space’. Presumably they did this because little houses facing Herbert Place were more marketable than a fewer number of taller houses facing Bath Street.

The planning officer appears to be Emma Deane again, she must be the only one in the building not on annual leave!

Disturbingly, from what I can see of her record, she’s inclined to see good in everybody. I think Ms. Deane is goin’ to have to get in touch with her inner bitch and start refusing some of this stuff.

my nana which is dead now was raised up by her mam and dad my great nana and grandad in no 11 bath street beside barrack lane with her brothers and sisters by the surname of QUIGLEY

and im wondering if i could get some pictures of inside that house before it is knocked down

@brady wrote:

im wondering if i could get some pictures of inside that house before it is knocked down

According to the architects, ‘. . . the timber has rotted to such an extent that it was not safe to walk on some of the floors, particularly at first floor level’ !

Personally, I’d be inclined to trust the floor boards more than the report.

The Building Condition Report also states (as justification for the proposed demolition) ‘The houses are located in an area which has poor underground bearing conditions. Normal strip foundations are not suitable in this area.’

This is the old Sandymount myth, cut and pasted, to justify a demolition in Irishtown. 11 & 13 Bath Street are located at probably the highest point in a significant little rise in the local landscape. By rights, the soil bearing conditions here should be the best for miles around. This site was in the very centre of the village, from the 17th century on, the location would have been chozen as the most suitable to build on.

This site is zoned ‘To protect and/or improve the amenities of residential conservation areas’. These houses are certainly among the oldest on the street, at least 18th century, and no ananysis has been offered to explain their age or origins, no analysis of their unusual plan form, no analysis of the unusual building form to the rear, particularly of no. 11, just a bunch of guff about cracks that look anything but life threatening.

Maybe this isn’t in the Georgian Core and it’s a bit off the beaten track, but these things still matter hugely at a local level. The fact that no one has objected to the development (inside the five weeks) should not be interpreted as informed consent. We’re entitled to believe that one of the filters in the planning process is some kind of professional assessment at a deeper heritage conservation level and that proposals, which may look innocuous to the man in the street, become subjected to some more rigorous scrutiny during this planning process.

I know this is the sleepy season, but if there was rigorous scrutiny here, there’s no way these houses would be knocked.

Legoland has just welcomed 2 new unruly neighbours. A family of Decauxs has just moved into Sean Moore Road. May have pics on Friday for the other thread

@alonso wrote:

Also there;s a brand new Garda Station almost complete on the conrner of Bath avenue and Irishtown/Tritonville.

Funny thing about Irishtown has always been it’s lack of a real sense of place – IGB and Legoland are both Ringsend, where I live is Sandymount

I meant to respond to this earlier.

That new Garda station certainly makes a statement. (not sure what the statement is). They might have slightly overdone the corner window thing, but it’s not pompous and it is really carefully detailed.

I couldn’t agree more with alonso’s second statement. I lived for years in a house that was patently in Irishtown, but the owners insisted on calling it Sandymount.

Here are a couple of pics of the cross laneways and side streets that are such a part of Irishtown’s character.

I’m not against hanging baskets.

@gunter wrote:

Oh that looks really in context for the area (Irony alert) take a bow OPW

ah Rory it’s not bad really. I go past here every day and it looks worse in the pic than it really is. I’ll get some more pics soon enough

Is the old (Arts & Crafts-y?) Garda Station gone? Or is it hidden behind the new one?

@ctesiphon wrote:

Is the old (Arts & Crafts-y?) Garda Station gone? Or is it hidden behind the new one?

Gone, I’m afraid. It was converted to a Garda station in the 1970s, it was originally the Rectory for St. Mathew’s C of I church across the road. The original police station (DMP barracks?), the one alonso pointed out had the distinction of being hemed in by three pubs, is still there at the corner of Barrack Lane.

On the positive side, the tower of St. Mathew’s has just undergone an excellent renovation, re-pointing the stonework with lime mortar. The contrast between the lime pointing and the remaining areas of cement pointing below, is striking.

I came across some photographs of Irishtown from about 1990. Not a whole lot has changed, maybe a few more trees have grown in the meantime, but one structure that’s gone missing is the old R.C. chapel. The chapel was a small red brick rectangular structure tucked in behind Pembroke Street near Chapel Avenue (appropriately enough). It was slightly out of square with the later Victorian terraced houses around it and probably fell out of use about the time that Ringsend and Sandymount got grand new granite churches in the mid 19th century.

The little R.C. chapel is just visible in the gap between the corner buildings on Pembroke Street.

A slightly better view of the chapel which was just used as a shed in recent times. I don’t think this one would have made it into Praxiteles’ top ten, but it would have had local historical value and tiny little ( pre-catholic emancipation? ) chapels wouldn’t be all that common.

The newsagents and Dodder Terrace behind

Next Door, St Mathews National School, current use unknown, office?

from right to left

Clarkes, Barrack Lane and rear of Beach Pub, back entrance to Gleesons out of shot, oul one being clever waiting on the wrong side of the road for the bus so she’ll see it before the others

Bus has come, front of Gleesons/Vintage Inn

A few shots of the new Garda Station, as opposed to a few shots AT the Garda station as evidenced in the 2nd photo

@alonso wrote:

oul one being clever waiting on the wrong side of the road for the bus so she’ll see it before the others

I had forgotten about that Irishtown bus stop tradition of waiting at the Barrack’s wall for the first sight of the no. 3 bus. Before the route of the no. 3 was extended out to Belfield, it’s terminus was just up the road at St. John’s Church in Sandymount, and the terminus of the no. 2 was even closer at Sandymount Green, yet the arrival of any bus was infuriatingly unpredictable. It wasn’t uncommon for two or three buses to go down the road to Sandymount and, up to a half an hour later, none to have come back up. The bus stop is only about 20m from the corner shop, but the minute you dashed down to Lawless’s (Robinson’s as was) to get a packet of silvermints some aul dear would have got in there ahead of you and starting dithering over a slice of ham and before you could say euthanasia three feckin buses would shoot past the window.

Those are good shots of (also at) the Garda station. It’s a classy essay in pre-brutalist modernism and it’s intriguing to try and figure out which bit is which, where are the lock-ups and who gets to use that top room on the roof? I think it’s a little beauty and it is really carefully composed and carefully detailed.

Here’s a copy of the 1849 O.S. map with the three coastal villages of Ringsend (blue), Irishtown (red) and Sandymount (green) outlined. I’ve also high-lighted the line of the shore for clarity. Irishtown is, by far, the oldest of the three but by the mid 19th century the other two had already bypassed it in scale and population. It seems clear that Bath Street would have got it’s name from being the direct route to ‘Cranfield Baths’.

great map Gunter.

My street has been a street for 160 years!!! Explains the subsidence in the kitchen 🙂 Also it’s funny that londonbridge was seemingly always significantly narrower than the road and Bath Avenue, even where the physical potential to widen was there. Now it’s a right pain in the arse as there’s traffic lights that are wholly indepndent of traffic flows in either direction – interesting how the primary road network was substantially laid down at that stage but the railway, if i’m correct, is drawn like a road in places – ie the level crossing at Lansdowne road looks like a junction (caused me some confusion until i saw the bridge over Bath Avenue)

I wonder what became of the distillery and we can see some of those pesky overmature trees of the Trinity College Botanic Gardens which are to be undergo compassionate euthanasia from Sean Dunne in Ballsbridge. We can also see the eastern end of the grid layout which persists to this day around Grand canal Docks as well as the split in Ringsend Road at the library – the block and t-junction replaced by a one way slip and a sweeping curve which is dodgy at best on a flying bike on a wet morning like today. Also interesting that the coast road is interrupted where that Stationery shop is today giving Mountain View a nice view of Howth Head and Seafield, well a field/garden leading to the sea.

If I was around then I’d say in quite visionary tones that this area needs a dog track, a 50,000 all seater football stadium and a 37 storey tower block. 😉 There woulda been shag all objections from locals

Gunter do you have any info on a street in Ringsend called Shamrock Avenue. I don’t think it’s there today and it was in a house here where Shamrock Rovers was formed. It was possibly where the flats are now – Stella gardens

from the club site
“The club was formed in 1901 in the city of Dublin in an area where the districts of Ringsend and Irishtown meet. The very first meeting took place at number four Irishtown Road but it wasn’t until the second meeting was held around the corner in Shamrock Avenue that the name Shamrock Rovers was decided upon.”

You could look at that map for hours and as it’s past midnight on a school night I think i’ll retire… Post Quick Reply my eye!

@alonso wrote:

great map Gunter.

Gunter do you have any info on a street in Ringsend called Shamrock Avenue. I don’t think it’s there today and it was in a house here where Shamrock Rovers was formed. It was possibly where the flats are now – Stella gardens

from the club site
“The club was formed in 1901 in the city of Dublin in an area where the districts of Ringsend and Irishtown meet. The very first meeting took place at number four Irishtown Road but it wasn’t until the second meeting was held around the corner in Shamrock Avenue that the name Shamrock Rovers was decided upon.”

You could look at that map for hours and as it’s past midnight on a school night I think i’ll retire… Post Quick Reply my eye!

How terribly common – I would hazard a pretty strong guess that SRFC were founded on the doorstep of some gaff on that road,but actually having a home:confused:

The lack of panache was there from the start unlike the illustrious Bohemian Football Club, founded in the gatekeepers lodge of the Phoenix Park 11 years previous:p

@alonso wrote:

do you have any info on a street in Ringsend called Shamrock Avenue. I don’t think it’s there today and it was in a house here where Shamrock Rovers was formed. It was possibly where the flats are now – Stella gardens

I think you’re right there alonso, there’s a street on the 1887 map that runs up from Irishtown Road to the Dodder, where Stella Gardens are now, it’s called something ‘Avenue’, I’m missing that bit of the map.

I thought that it was Shelbourne who were associated with Irishtown! Didn’t they play at the old Irishtown Stadium?

I know Paul Cleary of the ‘The Blades’ was a useful footballer until he went off with his brother Lar to found the best Dublin band of the 80s. They lived at 33 Bath Street before they moved down market (gedit) to Ringsend. You don’t see those lads thrashing any (protected structure) hotels.

Similar enough to Clondalkin Garda Station (which i think is fairly decent, certainly superior to the Irishtown job)

Cullen / Payne

@tommyt wrote:

How terribly common – I would hazard a pretty strong guess that SRFC were founded on the doorstep of some gaff on that road,but actually having a home:confused:

The lack of panache was there from the start unlike the illustrious Bohemian Football Club, founded in the gatekeepers lodge of the Phoenix Park 11 years previous:p

🙂 What’s that old derisory tv punditry saying tommyt?

“You’d see better football on a Sunday mornin on the 15 acres!”

Now I know the true origin of the saying. (Last night’s result aside:confused:)
🙁

@gunter wrote:

I think you’re right there alonso, there’s a street on the 1887 map that runs up from Irishtown Road to the Dodder, where Stella Gardens are now, it’s called something ‘Avenue’, I’m missing that bit of the map.

I thought that it was Shelbourne who were associated with Irishtown! Didn’t they play at the old Irishtown Stadium?

I know Paul Cleary of the ‘The Blades’ was a useful footballer until he went off with his brother Lar to found the best Dublin band of the 80s. They lived at 33 Bath Street before they moved down market (gedit) to Ringsend. You don’t see those lads thrashing any (protected structure) hotels.

they played at Irishtown for one season. it never worked out and they abandoned it (good ol wiki) – but their real home ground was Shelbourne Park in the beginning. They also played in Harold’s Cross before taking over Tolka. The history of the League of Ireland and the stadiums, clubs, names etc etc is the most complex web that could possibly be weaved. In my lifetike SRFC have played “home” games at Milltown, RDS, Tolka Park, Dalymount, Morton Stadium Santry and as of March, Tallaght. 6 locations with only 2 of them close together in any way, both homes of rivals,

Don’t know if I would agree that Clondalkin Garda station is superior to Irishtown. Your one looks like an office block, ours looks like an arthouse cinema. Getting nicked in Irishtown will be like going to the pictures.

Here’s a few more pics of good vernacular houses in Irishtown that together with the endangered ones at 11 & 13 Bath Street, constitute, with the street patterns, the real essence of the place.

The view south down Bath Street with the former post office on the corner on the left and the interesting three storey (possibly gabled) house behind it facing down the street now confronted by that new terrace with the bulging, nearly blank, gable wall onto the Bath Street.

Further down Bath Street at the point where the frontage turns in slightly (suggestive of a widening to create some sort of earlier market space). I can distinctly remember the day that one of these two fine brick houses got it’s fake stone facing to look as smart as it’s neighbour. To get a good key, the ‘builder’ scored the brickwork with a Kango hammer in great diagonal scars. I don’t think that would ever happen today. Today they would just knock the houses down as ‘uneconomical to renovate’.

A nice pair at the widest part of the Bath Street set-back. Front doors separated by just the width of the party wall can be an early 18th century feature, but everything else looks early 19th century.

A very interesting 5 bay at the top of Pembroke Street with very small first floor window dimensions and altered ground floor windows (possibly lost shopfronts).

The door of the Pembroke Street 5 bay (can’t decide if it’s stone of stucco) and the fine 18th century door case to no. 35 Bath Street.

The Pembroke Street 5 Bay is attached to this. I think this pub used to be called Seapoint House and beneath all the accretions are probably the remains of the 18th / 19th century frontage that appears on the 1849 map and which signalled the entry point to the village from the Ringsend direction. I can’t find any old photographs of Seapoint House, but I have a very dim recollection of a low two storey stucco facade with a lot of windows at odd spacings.

I also have a dim recollection of a fatal stabbing there a few years ago. I could be mistaken but it may have been shut ever since?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0601/kavanaghj.html

Gunter: re the fyfestone facing and the mani(a)c hammerman builder; I’ve noticed in trips to Amsterdam that many of the old brick facades are actually painted (usually in a very dark grey/brown or even black), so if you are prepared to accept a bit of touching-up (if you know what I mean), even destroyed facades can be rescued to some extent. Assuming you get the fyfestone off, of course (which begs the question of why it was ever done in the first place).

560k for the post office, if anyone’s curious.

Gunter- would you say Irishtown ends at the junction of Londonbridge Road and Tritonville Avenue? One of my favourite buildings in the area is the old farmhouse just south of that junction, on the western side of the road. It’s the bright orange one set back from the road. According to a local a few years ago (my brother used to live across the road), the farmhouse stood on that site for years surrounded by fields. This would suggest that the house is a good deal older than the adjacent ones, but the age is hard to work out. Any thoughts or info? It looks early 20th century, but it could be one of those deceptively modern Victorian ones.

@johnglas wrote:

re the fyfestone facing and the mani(a)c hammerman builder;

Fyfestone johnglas? that stuff has a name!

My memory of these houses was that their original brickwork had always been heavily over-painted in thick gloss paint and my hope would be that the Kango hammer scoring was blunted by the paint layers. Having said that, I do remember shards of brick flying across the street.

In an ideal world, special places like Irishtown would benefit from the attention and expertise of a dedicated team in the City council who would advise property owners and potential developers on how best to address issues like this and also nip proposals like the one for 11 / 13 Bath Street in the bud.

@ctesiphon wrote:

would you say Irishtown ends at the junction of Londonbridge Road and Tritonville Avenue? One of my favourite buildings in the area is the old farmhouse just south of that junction, on the western side of the road. It’s the bright orange one set back from the road.

Tritonville Road is 100% Sandymount, you would set off coronary alerts if you even mentioned the word Irishtown.

If you mean the bright orange (brick) house, ctesiphon, I’m pretty sure it’s just 1930s. In contrast to the granite heads over the window opes, there’s a long, slightly saggy, concrete head over the garage, but otherwise there’s nothing to indicate that the garage isn’t original, so definitely 1930s, I would say. BTW, there’s nothing here on the 1849 map. They were really nice people in that house, they used to give us a lift to school on really wet days, nice old Jaguar, if I recall.

The old Post Office, ‘might suit builder for townhouse development’! This is another reason why the right decision on 11 / 13 Bath Street is so important.

@gunter wrote:

If you mean the bright orange (brick) house, ctesiphon, I’m pretty sure it’s just 1930s. In contrast to the granite heads over the window opes, there’s a long, slightly saggy, concrete head over the garage, but otherwise there’s nothing to indicate that the garage isn’t original, so definitely 1930s, I would say. BTW, there’s nothing here on the 1849 map. They were really nice people in that house, they used to give us a lift to school on really wet days, nice old Jaguar, if I recall.

Cheers. That’s the one. My gut feeling was 1930s, but I couldn’t reconcile it with the previous statement re ‘when I were a lad, this were all fields’ (;)) and I wasn’t sure if I could see it on your map (above). The terrace opposite is certainly missing from your map, though the terraced single-storey over basement houses on the south-east corner of the Bath/Tritonville junction are in place.

Tritonville Road, btw, must be one of the very few roads in the whole city that is not a complete strip- it’s ‘broken’ at the junction where the old Presbyterian church stood.

How did they get away with knocking that Presbyterian church? it was a perfect little train-set church. One of the last ‘Dry Rot’ demolitions, if I recall. Brian Ridout would have humiliated them in an oral hearing.

More grim news on the Irishtown front, the demolition of 11 & 13 Bath Street has gone for Additional Information as well.

What’s that song from Oklahoma?

One crumb of comfort, under the heading ‘Principle of Demolition’, the planner’s report states:

The applicant has submitted a Condition Report illustrating the current poor condition of both houses to demonstrate that demolition of these houses is justified. It is considered that whilst the applicant states structural reasons for the demolition of these two buildings the need for a further investigation in the historical background of these buildings would better inform the Planning Authorities assessment of the proposal’.

Well I did say a crumb of comfort.

The problem with this application is that there is now no safety net. There were no objections in the five weeks so there can be no third party appeal. A decision by DCC to permit this demolition would be the final decision.

Since I had to dig out Brooking’s map for the other thread, here’s a poor quality copy of the top left corner of his ‘Prospect of the City of Dublin from the North’, showing the village of Ringsend at the end of the quay wall, with Irishtown just beyond it, clustered around the distinctive square tower of St. Mathew’s church.

It might be very vague in detail, but the extent to which the village was developed, by 1728, is unmistakable.

The Dodder was called the “Donney Brook River”… huh, Donney Brook – so that’s where it came from. Wonder what Donny was -is the Irish for Donnybrook Domhnach Broc? According to wiki it means Church of St Broc. Now I’m really confused. Is that a rebastardisation back into Irish? Coz Donney Brook makes sense in English for a river’s name.

I give up. Anyone willing or able to shed light?

@ctesiphon wrote:

Tritonville Road, btw, must be one of the very few roads in the whole city that is not a complete strip- it’s ‘broken’ at the junction where the old Presbyterian church stood.

Yes, that little stretch between the former church and the garda station really feels more like Sandymount Road. I’ve been told that the house on the bend – at the ‘break’ – was formerly the coastguard’s house, which (if true) shows how much land has been reclaimed over the years.

Gunter: is it true that ships/boats used to tie up at the back of the church in Irishtown? I’ve also been told that there’s a ring for this purpose built into the wall of the church, though I’ve never seen it.

Ctesiphon: perhaps ‘broken’ streets/roads could be worthy of its own thread.:) Would you consider Pembroke Road to be ‘broken’?

yeh open a new thread on that alright – Stradbrook Road in Blackrock is another. Although a whole thread on this topic may up the “nerd” aspect of this forum. Seamus I’ll have a look around that church if i get a chance or remember

On 11 – 13 Bath Street, (Reg. no. 3285/08) the Additional Information went back in on 17 Dec.

The proposal is to demolish these two houses and basically build two replacement houses in a broadly similar style.

The planning application attracted no objections, at the time, but the fact that the site is located in the centre of the village of Irishtown, the existing houses are covered by a ‘Conservation Area’ zoning, and that the houses appear to incorporate early features, it seemed reasonable to question the appropriateness of the development.

Probably entirely by chance, Additional Information was sought by the Planners, on two counts:

Leaving the back window issue aside, that historical context and building ”Assessment Report” has now been submitted, (or at least that’s what it says on the cover page)!

I want to say at the out-set that I do understand the importance of not getting too stressed . . . . but come on:

The report goes on to suggest that, as the proposed replacement houses have ”a front elevation replicating the existing, so that there would be no change on the street frontage and general appearance”, (not actually true), what’s the problem basically.

No more than our learned friend, (a Grade 1, Conservation Architect, with offices on one of our better Georgian streets), I don’t claim to know the construction date of these two houses, but I think we can rule out the 20th century, despite the evidence of all the 1960s tiled fireplaces noted in the report, and apart from the chimney stacks and probably the in-fill rear extensions, I’d be inclined to rule out the 19th century also, which leaves us with the 18th century!

The report records that the exterior is cement rendered, but it doesn’t point out that red brickwork, over a rough stone plinth, clearly peeps through the render in a couple of places, or that the low ceiling heights are indicative of an early date, rather than necessarily indicative of mean structures for the lower orders.

The floor plans submitted by the applicants with the ground floor above and the first floor below. I’ve put a red line around what I think is the outline of the original construction.

Together, the two houses present a rare, unified, seven bay, frontage to the street and the clear suggestion from the plans is that the original arrangement was, while just one room deep (with stairwell returns projecting out from the original rear wall), prestigious in the context of the village of Irishtown. I also wouldn’t rule out the distinct possibility (not addressed in the assessment report) that these houses originally had another floor, or an attic storey, based on the suggestion from the external appearance that the stairwells rose to at least another half landing over first floor level, as noted before.

The question I would ask is: What is the evidence that 11 & 13 Bath Street are not the oldest houses in Irishtown?

The new police station is a disaster, I was very sorry to see the Arts & Crafts building go. However, I still haven’t forgiven the demolition of the church that inhabited the corner of Tritonville Road that was replaced about six or seven years ago with an appalling development. Anyone, with pictures of the old Presbyterian Church, before and after.

What is the bloody point of having a desigination ”Conservation Area”?
What’s it supposed to mean?

Why do they even bother colouring up the maps to give a zoning objective of ”Residential Conservation” (Z2), to particular structures and not others, if you can just come along and get planning permission to knock the structures down after you’ve let them get a bit delapidated for a couple of years?

What’s the bloody point of looking for a ”full historical assessment of the structures . . to include . . an architectural history of the application site and details of the context in which the site was developed”, if, when it comes in, and it’s clearly as lame as a three legged dog, it still gets accepted as if it was a thesis from UNESCO?

Ten days before the deadline, the Planning Dept. have gone ahead and granted permission for the demolition of 11 & 13 Bath Street !

The case officer was originally Emma Deane and now it’s given as Pat Ewen.

This is bitterly disappointing. Pat Ewen is normally a safe pair of hands, he’s a well respected planning officer, and, unusually for a planning official, he seems to have remained in the same role (and mostly the same area) for about twenty years. What seems to have happened here is that he’s just trusted in what the A.I. requested Historical Assessment Report told him:

If we exonorate the planning officer, then the vilian has to be the experienced professional who wrote that ”Historical Assessment Report”! IMO, this individual has serious questions to answer, as do the RIAI who appear to have bestowed a ”Conservation, Grade 1” qualification on him.

The point here is that places like Irishtown which have what, six hundred years of heritage behind them, have inherent qualities that make them special and worthy of lavishing all those high sounding Development Plan phrases on them in the first place, phrases like: ‘Protected Structure’ and ‘Architectural Conservation’ and ‘Zone of Archaeological Interest’.

Dublin City Council’s current zoning map! (horizontal red hatching is ”Conservation area”, Deeper yellow is Z2, ”Residential Conservation”, and the broken heavy blue line is ”Zone of Archaeological Interest”

Some of these inherent qualities, like the early street patterns, can survive a certain amount of site clearance and new build, if it’s done well, and some of the inherent qualities just depend on there being surviving building stock remaining to illustrate the historic depth in the urban fabric and to delight with their patina and their period details, as GrahamH might say.

Aerial view of Irishtown from the west with Bath Street running from left to right, forming the spine of the village.

In nos. 11 & 13 Bath Street, we’re clearly dealing with two of the oldest houses in Irishtown, houses which display fascinating and unusual plan features, and houses that, even the woefully lazy and inadequate ”Historic Assessment Report” concedes, haven’t yet revealed all their secrets.

In any civilized country, these would be the last houses that you would ever permit to be demolished, especially to be replaced by an insipid half mock-up of themselves.

Which ever way you look at it, either we need a better planning system, or we need a higher standard of Building Assessment Report, or preferably both.

@nneligan wrote:

The new police station is a disaster, I was very sorry to see the Arts & Crafts building go. .

This seems a bit trivial now, but I think the pictures posted earlier in the thread show the new Garda Station to be a pretty decent building. Opinions differ I guess.

Need gunter’s observations be even noted as echoed. What exactly does “which is not fulfilled by close examination” mean? Even taking them as a pair of Edwardian summer houses, they would have “an appearance of age”, never mind being of at least 19th century origin. How old does something have to be to be considered an OAP these days? All other quoted observations appear to be based on a comparison with the Provost’s House, as one encounters time and time again with vernacular houses about to be whacked.

Often what gives an indication of a building’s date, especially when difficult to decipher, is not the original fabric but the later additions. The very fact that there are alterations to a structure is indication in itself that an earlier building is likely to have been modified in some way, but being able to pinpoint the date of the alterations aids matter further, such as the commonplace early 19th century modification of c. 1700 buildings. Buildings tend to have a life of a century or so of cosmetic adjustment before major structural intervention is required/desired. In the case of Bath Street, I’d agree the grandiose double height structure to the rear is almost certainly an infill of an earlier pair of houses. The fact that this addition dates to the late 19th century, possibly c. 1870s, as with the roof structure, chimneystacks, shopfront, flat panel doors and two-over-two timber sashes, suggests these houses were first built in the mid-late 18th century and later significantly aggrandised. The ambitious number of windows to the upper storeys alone suggests modification, while the unifying render (which does not appear to be cement) pasted over old and new structures was a common post-alteration ploy.

As much as I’d like to bank on the corner chimneybreasts as being original, they do look like an awkward Victorian modification. I have come across such random stacks in Victorian buildings as late as the 1880s; they appear to have been handy solutions for small rooms. However it’s impossible to tell in this case – certainly they’re an alarm bell-ringer!

As for conservation reports and assessments on a wider level, generally speaking they mean nothing, save the historical anecdotes to lift a planner’s coffee break. All objectivity flies out the window when beholden to a client: in the big consortium cases there’s enormous money at stake, while for the small scale like this, repeat business is everything. It’s a crying shame – the client might as well write it themselves.

. . . and if they’re planning to knock the buildings anyway, what’s the big deal about knocking a bit of the render off?

There’d be clues aplenty if we could get a look at the brickwork!

They don’t want to find anything, that’s the problem!

given the day that’s in it, perhaps a slight alteration to the name of Bar(r)ack Lane – between Irishtown Road and Bath Avenue – may be necessary to get the desired level of protection for this old district….

@GrahamH wrote:

Often what gives an indication of a building’s date, especially when difficult to decipher, is not the original fabric but the later additions

That’s a very good point, and one that seems to have escaped our Grade One friend.

@GrahamH wrote:

. . . . In the case of Bath Street, I’d agree the grandiose double height structure to the rear is almost certainly an infill of an earlier pair of houses. The fact that this addition dates to the late 19th century, possibly c. 1870s, as with the roof structure, chimneystacks, shopfront, flat panel doors and two-over-two timber sashes, suggests these houses were first built in the mid-late 18th century and later significantly aggrandised.

It looks like the in-filling between the stairwell returns is earlier than that!

Nos. 11 & 13 are marked with a red X.

I found this great map of Irishtown dated 1831 and it shows a flat rear profile to these houses, corresponding exactly to the current arrangement. The map looks pretty detailed and acurate in it’s representations of rear returns elsewhere in the village, so I think we’re entitled to conclude that the existing rear in-fill extensions had been built by 1831.

Given the considerable difference in scale and detail of the extensions from the original, anything less than a fifty year gap, would seem very unlikely. That gives us a construction date for the houses of 1780 at the lastest.

The detail on this copy of the map is a bit unclear, but I think the notation on the property reads ‘Alex. Worthington, Sundry Tenements’.

‘Tenement’, along with ‘Messauge’ was a common notation for houses at the time, but I think it would still indicate that the properties, unlike those with individual names attached, were rented premises, possibly in multiple occupancy.

Does anyone know what the plans are for george reynolds flats in ringsend. Just passed there and it looks like they are knocking them all down.

@gunter wrote:

I found this great map of Irishtown dated 1831 and it shows a flat rear profile to these houses, corresponding exactly to the current arrangement. The map looks pretty detailed and acurate in it’s representations of rear returns elsewhere in the village, so I think we’re entitled to conclude that the existing rear in-fill extensions had been built by 1831.

Aha most interesting. However, to throw a spanner in the works, it is entirely possible the infilled structure the map depicts is single-storey to the rear. Personally I think this more likely, as it was very common for such houses to be one room deep with a single-storey abutment at the back. This would also explain the semi-independent character of the stair projections, if they were once taller than an adjacent structure. It’s difficult to be sure going by the pictures alone, but it’s impossible to believe that the rear structure in all its gradiosity dates to pre-1830, unless it was an original part of the house. Either way, the windows and doors are all considerably later.

I’m going to suggest that a single-storey extension was built up to first floor level in the late 19th century. This would help explain its considerable and ‘well built’ character, and also the dense array of windows to the front of the buildings which also hint at a comprehensive reordering of first floor accommodation.

@GrahamH wrote:

. . . the dense array of windows to the front of the buildings . . . . also hint at a comprehensive reordering of first floor accommodation.

I’m not sure I buy that Graham, if they had ”comprehensively reordered” the first floor, surely they would have put a new simple roof on the extended and squared up houses at the same time, not roofed the extensions separately?

To my mind, it’s the number and spacing of the windows on the street facade that is one of the strongest indicators of an early (mid 18th century?) date! that and the low ground floor cill heights, the low floor to ceiling heights, the single room depth, the projecting returns and the suggested red brick over rubble stone plinth construction.

That brickwork that peeps out through the cracks in the render looks older than Victorian to me, and it’s not yellowish either, i.e. not from the local Sandymount brickworks of the 19th century!

By chance, a bit of render fell off the corner the other day and it appears that the rubble stone plint is a bit higher than I would have expected, but, then again, maybe we can explain this as a rough repair to a damaged corner given that the house is on the corner of a narrow lane (Alonso’s Barack Lane) where cart wheel damage wouldn’t be unusual.

Obviously, I could be completely wrong about all of this.

Well this is turning into a bit of a saga isn’t it?

@gunter wrote:

surely they would have put a new simple roof on the extended and squared up houses at the same time, not roofed the extensions separately?

I doubt it in this case. It would make more sense, from a cost perspective anyway, to simply retain what was there and insert an independent new-built in their midst. Unlike today with our twenty-year colour guarantee slate muck, and cheap, easily sourced materials, it was very common (need it even be said) for older structures to be simply worked around – especially true of returns such as these, where the modernising requirements of the new accommodation were not required to be applied to such ancillary spaces.

Fair point about the density of the windows. I suppose there’s two ways at looking at that: 1) they’re early because of their cumbersome clustering, or 2) they’re much later because of such an ambitious number of prized windows in such a modest building.

Do you think the houses were originally of exposed red brick, gunter? Or always rendered but built out of red brick? It’s also possible the whole buildings are of rubble stone with just the window surrounds of brick, as was the norm…

Taking into account the resources of the people who owned and lived in these buildings, it’s hard to believe that there was more than one wave of redevelopment over the course of the 19th century. Given the windows, doors and chimneys clearly date from the late 19th century, it can only be reasonably assumed that the upper part of the rear extension – if it even is an extension – dates from this time. This in turn would suggest the houses were built about 100 years beforehand. A supposition based on a supposition, but sure we have to start somewhere…

By chance, a bit of render fell off the corner the other day

Indeed.

@GrahamH wrote:

Do you think the houses were originally of exposed red brick, gunter? Or always rendered but built out of red brick?

I was thinking the brickwork was the probable finish throughout.

I was half hoping that we could pin these down to the early 1700s, that they were survivors of the Irishtown of Brookings view, the building period that saw the construction of the new church.

I’ve known these houses all my life, It’s just really frustating not to be able to unravel their story and knowing that they can now be demolished without ever doing them the courtesy of finding out how old they are.

Possibly a bit undignified to become emotional about a couple grubby old houses!

Ah well, at least through exposed foundations and loose rubble we’ll have a better idea of the significance of what stood on the site once it’s demolished.

@irishguy wrote:

Does anyone know what the plans are for george reynolds flats in ringsend. Just passed there and it looks like they are knocking them all down.

I hadn’t heard what the plans were, but this is a photograph of that stretch of Irishtown Road showing the original terrace of cottages on the site before the flats were constructed.

Lawless’s shop, previously Robinson’s, is unchanged on the left.

@gunter wrote:

On 11 – 13 Bath Street, (Reg. no. 3285/08) the Additional Information went back in on 17 Dec.

The proposal is to demolish these two houses and basically build two replacement houses in a broadly similar style.

This happens all the time in Irish towns and villages. Good vernacular buildings are replaced by sterile hollow-block versions of themselves. Example from Carlow Town:
🙁

the souped up Honda and the Velux windowed muck replacing an historic building – could there be a better picture of Irish Culture 2009?

gunter- I noticed this morning as I cycled past that the house to the left of your forlorn pair (No. 9 Bath Street?) had workmen buzzing around. Not sure if it’s related to the proposed works next door. Might try and get a snap in the morning.

Thanks for that ctesiphon.

I was kinda hoping the recession would take care of this.

I think I posted a copy of an 1830s map of Irishtown which was a bit inconclusive on nos. 11 & 13 in that it apeared to show the area between the rear returns filled in and we couldn’t be sure if this reflected an original ground floor extension (graham) or the present 19th century extension (gunter). In this regard, there could be some more clues to the date/original layout of these houses in that great Fitzwilliam Estate Map of 1760 which is reproduced in McCullough. The north-east extremity of the map seems to include Ringsend and Irishown, but unfortunately, as reproduced, the page margin cuts this off!.

Apparently the Architectural Archive on Merrion Square have a copy of this map and the National Archives in Bishop Street have the original, . . . . . bit of a toss-up there to decide which is likely to be the least helpful, publicly funded, national heritage repository, and the least fruitful source for a quick digital snap!

Well I had the camera in the bag this morning, but when I took it out for a photo there was a ‘Memory Card Error’, so the snap wasn’t possible. However, I did stop for a look. There’s a big skip outside Nos. 11-13 full of builders’ rubble, which seems to be coming from No.9 (or is it No. 15?), and a sign on that house giving details of the building company. I think the name was Buto? Anyway, I’ll keep an eye on it as it’s recently become part of my morning commute (except when it’s very windy and I take Park Avenue instead of the coast road).

Good luck with the map.

This is a very difficult time for architects and the Arts Council recognises the particularly acute, current need to support them in their work practices. We are delighted that Orla Murphy is the recipient of this year’s award. Orla will be researching the potential of architecture to enhance the experience of living, working and playing in the 21 century Irish town’.

Any Irish town or the Irish town?:D

What an enchanting place Irishtown is on a summer’s evening; Bath Street in particular. The relative absence of traffic and people serves to enhance its valley of the squinting windows quality: one of those rare breeds in Ireland, so commonplace in England, of eerie intimate village streets, packed to the rafters like a 1950s provisions store with a mixumgatherum of vernacular buildings, so small and relatively undisturbed as to make it feel like trespass, if not wholesale cultural vandalism, to enter into their closeted world.

Happily, this suspicion has its benefits when one wishes to find out about something, as it’s only a matter of time before a resident will come to their door if one proves sufficiently suspicious loitering about outside with a camera.

This incredible house which gunter referenced the doorcase of earlier is clearly of mid-18th century date, with a vicarage-style makeover on top conducted in the 19th century.

The owner tended to concur with this, though only after the weirdo outside suggested it, so not necessarily set in stone. They were however aware that the house was well over 200 years old. The similar pretty house facing the laneway to the side was formerly the mews of this house, so this alone tells us significant modification was carried out on an earlier house.

An interesting feature was the significant drop from pavement level into the house itself. One wonders if the ground floor had been excavated in the 19th century, as the ceiling heights were surprisingly high. What internal joinery I could make out was of similar date.

The couple also reported on significant drilling noise – described as ‘piling’ – coming from the unfortunate houses gunter has charted further up the street. They contended the houses were being refurbished rather than demolished, but weren’t sure.

The front room of the left-hand house with corner fireplace is beyond tiny, There is almost without doubt the remains of an earlier structure in this pair of buildings. Below alone suggests that the hallway of this house was a later insertion, consuming part of the once cube-like room.

It is obscene what has been permitted in respect of these houses – amongst the top five most significant houses in the village. As noted earlier, if the entire village was to be whacked by order of importance, these would be amongst the final buildings left standing.

A decision akin to this type of thinking.

The house next door in Bath Street is also undergoing ‘refurbishment’.

The barracks is a very handsome building. Clearly the grandest and most modern ever built in the town at that time, it must have had as much, if not more, impact as the new Garda Station today, with sophisticated hints of the Wide Streets Commission’s work.

Is there a chipper anywhere in Irishtown? I was not amused.

yeh there’s Iannelli’s and the Canton House not more than 80 yards from where you were standing

One of those fine vernacular houses on Bath Street had its appalling 1970s fake-stone cladding chipped off on Wednesday. Sadly the damage done to the original red brick by the guys who keyed in the wretched fake stone, forty odd years ago, was every bit as bad as I remembered it.

I understand that the façade is to be rendered.

In a civilized country, there would be local authority advice and grant assistance for the owners of valuable houses like this.

Digging up an old topic, but it may be of interest that a planning application for Nos 11-13 Bath Street has been resubmitted. No development work was undertaken on the houses after the previous application was granted in 2008. The new application appears to be a resubmission of the old one. March 10 or so is the closing date for submissions.